Saturday, July 10, 2010

Will We Lose Hala'ib Too !!??

MP and former President's advisor Mustafa El-Faky claims that international arbitration will be in our side in Hala'ib triangle issue based on the fact that our Southern borders are at latitude 22.

I want to believe Dr. El-Faky especially that he is a veteran diplomat but despite my belief that the law is in our side , I fear to believe that regime as our fiascos in FIFA and Siag cases are still hunting us and that regime is good in losing our rights so easily. Of course I expect more seriousness hopefully because Mubarak regime can't tolerate losing a part of Egypt in this critical time.

Again I believe that Al Bashir is doing all this buzz in order to divert the Sudanese people's attention from his failure to keep Sudan as one nation ;I do not believe that the mineral wealth of Hala'ib plays a great role in the conflict because Sudan is very rich country , it does need Hala'ib to increase its GDP for God sake.

By the way I hope that our embassies and internet department pay attention to international maps which exclude Hala'ib triangle from Egypt's map despite internationally our borders are at latitude 22. Here is another map from Atlas. All the Sudanese maps exclude Hala'ib in the same way.

Back to the international arbitration , I believe before heading to the IJC , we should head to the Arab league and the African Union despite the fact the later considers Hala'ib is part of Sudan too !!

Reporters Pakinam Amer and Amr El-Beleidy from Al Masry Al Youm paid a visit to Hala'ib and Shalateen from couple of months ago where they wrote a series of reports about Shalateen which I recommend you to read.

Shalateen and back again :

  1. A hunt for adventure, fun and facts in the southern mountains
  2. Shalateen: Growing up between a rock and a hard place
  3. Shalateen: The long drive down
  4. Shalateen: The hunt for truths in a far-off town

I envy Pakinam and Amr , I wish to go to Hala'ib and Shalateen in order to know the truth more.

35 comments:

  1. We will lose for sure since we took it in 1993 through the army. Moreover, international community will refer to british maps which impose Halayeb as a part of Sudan (although Egypt and Sudan were colonized at the time)

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  2. Zeinobia, thank you for this interesting article and your earlier one Lattitude 22. Africa is full of artificial straight-line borders established for the administrative convenience of the British Empire and other colonial powers. It's surprising there aren't more disputes.

    There are some deviations from the 22nd parallel that are not in dispute. Sudan's sovereignty extends northward into the water toward Lake Nasser. And Bir Tawil, the "Sudan Government Administration Area" just below the 22nd is claimed by neither country. هههههههههههههههههه Nobody wants it. :)

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  3. Ever since I read what that man has said I became sure will probably loose Halayieb too. Look at all the issues our regimes have dealt with during the past 5 years, they alway give us a pinky outlook then things turn out the opposite of what they said.
    I think ppl in Sudan and Egypt need to think about what is best for the ppl of that area, they have ties with both sides and instead of turning this into a reason to disagree with each other we should all work to develop this area and make it an example of understanding.

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  4. Sudanese Observer7/11/2010 12:53:00 AM

    So now Egyptian officials are talking of international arbitration?

    That's a positive step.

    I am confident the Sudanese side's case is robust.

    The peoples of Halayeb who most Egyptians and commentators here no nothing about, have more organic and natural civil and customary ties with the peoples in Eastern and Northern Sudan.

    This particular politician met and briefed Sudanese journalists who were invited to Cairo in the fall-out of the lies and smear campaign orchestrated by the likes of Amr Adib.

    I don't think Sudanese journalists should accept any invitation to be briefed by him again.

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  5. Zeinobia you know nothing about Sudan.

    The Sudanese opposition ALL consider Halayeb to be Sudanese territory that is illegally militarily occupied - and the dispute exists since the 50's and has been lodged with the Security Council.

    Over-simplistic analyses and apportionement of blame to individuals doesn't work as far as Sudan goes.

    The reports on Shalateen might as well have been written by complete foeigners.

    We the 'Sudanese' - ruling party and opposition and citizens - will 'not' let this issue go.

    Good luck trying to convince the world of yet another imaginary remnant of Egypt's manifest destiny - another 'historical right'.

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  6. @Sudanese observer and Africanist, despite your Oxford english, you both seem to be politically naive. You keep visiting Zeinobia's website to comment on only 2 issues, Egypt being racist against blacks (which is a rediculous accusation considering that we had 2 presidents with Sudanese ancestry)and the issue of hala'ib. I wonder if you also visit Kenyan or Ethiopian blogs to comment on the issue of Ilemi triangle?
    Look maybe the people of Hala'ib feel themselves more Sudanese than Egyptian but that can also apply to the people of Nubia who feel attached to the Sudanese culture more than the Egyptian culture or the people of western desert (to Libya) or the people of Sinai (to Palestine). That does not change the fact that Hala'ib now is in the strong hand and will remain so. Asking Egypt to go to an international arbitration to decide the fate of Hala'ib is like asking USA and Mexico to accept international arbitration to decide the fate of Texas. Taba was a different story because it is a very small piece of land and Israel was smart enough not to cling to it after returning the huge Sinai back to Egypt. Hey wake up and smell the coffee.

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  7. @Africanist:
    El Kekey is not official, in case you havent heard he is no longer serving in the presidential office. His position now is a PM and his talk only reflects his opinion. Also, this is a territorial matter so the army gets a big saying in this.
    "The peoples of Halayeb who most Egyptians and commentators here no nothing about, have more organic and natural civil and customary ties with the peoples in Eastern and Northern Sudan."
    Im sure you know all about the Sudanese ppl, in every remote part of the country. Im sure if you ask the citizens of any other country you will find that they know about the inhabitants of every remote part of it right?
    So, my question here is since you claim that the only Egyptian relation to this territory and its ppl is the recent military annexation and since you claim a more organic, profound wt ever you said relation with them, plz enlighten us, what have the Sudanese ppl and gov done for this so precious territory? or did they only become precious recently?!!

    "We the 'Sudanese' - ruling party and opposition and citizens - will 'not' let this issue go."
    Are you the official spokes person or what? Chill and take a pill. Youve been repeating yourself over and over during the past days. Im not being mean here but realistically, this is not the only territory that is disputed and arbitration wont happen at least not for the time being.

    @Sudanese Observer:
    "I don't think Sudanese journalists should accept any invitation to be briefed by him again.:
    So just bec the man has a different point of view from yours, he must be bad!!! Its a first for me to hear that foreign journalists get to choose who briefs them!!
    "Good luck trying to convince the world of yet another imaginary remnant of Egypt's manifest destiny - another 'historical right'."
    Egypt's historical and legal right in the nile water is actually recognized by all, since you were eluding to that.
    You know, even though I wouldnt want my country to be an occupier if thats the case and I would want this to be settled fair and square, one thing you are missing about relying on the World on this matter is that actually some of the major powers happen to be occupying some land somewhere, so, who will pressure us the U.K. who wouldnt give back the Falklands?! the U.S. occupying Iraq and Afghanstan?!! From where will the int pressure come, at a time when the Sudanese president is a wanted man and the country is on the brink of splitting?

    @Z: I think it was utter stupidity that they allowed these elections to happen there, what were they thinking?!!

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  8. @Jason , that unclaimed land also puzzles me

    @anonymous , you can't ignore this feeling


    @last anonymous , do not even ask me , ask them

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  9. Halayeb is now in the strong hand?
    Sounds like something AbdalNasser (the pillager of Sudanese Nubia) would say.
    Keep clinging to the piece of land whose people you don't know, keep being obtrusive and non-supportive of a diplomatic solution to the dispute through international arbitration - but don't say we didn't warn you of the consequences.
    The 'strong hand' as you put it is fighting at least 5 other upstream states in their legitimate struggle for equitable utilisation of the Nile...
    For your information the Sudanese opposition believes that Sudan should join the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement...
    South Sudan is going to become the 6th State to sign and ratify the Agreement which would bring it into force.
    The Jonglei Canal (with Egypt as its beneficiary) will never be constructed.
    The ruling party's bias towards Egypt is based on political pragmatism and expediency as Egypt gives nominal support to the President who is indicted by the ICC...
    But sooner or later change will come and Sudan will demand the revision of the 1959 Agreement and sign up to the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement.

    We are already increasing our consumptive uses of the Nile's waters, 'without' coordinating with Egypt.
    Each to their own - you've been looking out for your interests and so are we.
    And your claim that the whole world respects historical rights is rubbish.
    The substantive rule of international water law is 'equitable and reasonable utilisation' - read the UN Watercourses Convention 1997.

    And the excuses given to refute the existence of racism in Egypt's media are getting progressively more pathetic.
    The empirical evidence is there.
    The fact that you refuse to admit that the problem exists only adds insult to injury.

    As for Sadat, didn't Heikal refer in disparaging terms to his Nubian roots???

    And that was in the past - what of Egypt's future leadership?

    Baradei has not commented on Sudan and the first time Gamal Mubarak visited was a whirlwind trip...to watch Egypt lose to Algeria in Omdurman...

    Reference to other issues in Sudan including the ICC indictment of the President will do 'nothing' to quell our legitimate demands for the liberation of our land from illegal military occupation or at the very least the referral of the issue to international arbitration.

    The only naive dialectic is Anonymous' who thinks people will accept the denial of crimes and that two or three or four wrongs make a right.

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  10. @ Hazem and Anonymous

    Hazem it's amusing to me how you consider my views which are contrary to yours to be naive...

    The Sudanese people will not let this issue go.
    The President considers Halayeb to be under illegal military annexation, Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi and all this followers considers Halayeb to be under illegal military annexation, the leadership of the SPLM - particularly the Northern faction consider Halayeb to be under illegal military annexation but most importantly the Beja Congress (Bishariyeen, Abaabda and Beni Aamir) and the Free Lions (Rashaida) whose kith and kin live in the open air prison that is Halayeb today - consider Halayeb to be under illegal military annexation.

    Drawing extreme parallels by referring to Nubians in Egypt or people in your deserts bordering Libya or with Mexico and the US who fought wars and 'signed treaties' is not objective.

    The fact remains that Halayeb is 'disputed' and this is recognised by the international community and the only way to solve the issue is through international aribitration like what Egypt did with Israel.
    Nigeria and Cameroon did this recently over the Bakassi peninsula.
    Malaysia and Singapore went to international arbitration over Middle Rocks and South Ledge
    Benin and Niger over a disputed border
    Indonesia and Malaysia over Palau Sipadan
    Botswana and Namibia over a disputed island
    Libya and Chad over their disputed border.
    *North and South Sudan over Abyei*

    Anonymous the only one who needs to wake up and smell the coffee (Ethiopian and grown using the waters of the Blue Nile) is you.

    Until and unless the issue of Halayeb is put before international arbitration this issue will continue to poison relations.

    I do visit Ethiopian and Kenyan blogs and feel more at home there than I do in this one.
    A significant portion of the Sudano-Ethiopian border is not demarcated - yet no side has decided to use force to militarily annex any portion - *unlike* what Egypt did over Halayeb.

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  11. I referred to "legal" not historical rights. When there is a treaty at issue there are so many other rules that come into play. Those living in Halayieb have Egyptian ID cards, Egyptian established services and seem to be doing fine except for members of one tribe.
    You never answered my question, what have Sudan done to the ppl of Halayieb and Shalateen?
    What have Sudan done to Africa?
    I didnt deny there is racism i simply stated the obvious, in every country there is racism, in your own country Northern and Southern Sudanese have some major racism going on. I asked you about Southern-Northern marriages and you didnt answer, I know the answer already. What you fail to realize and address is that you also have racism against each other and against Egyptians not to mention how some of you have inferiority complexes that paint their ideas about Egyptian-Sudanese relations. Like i said, we have interests in Sudan as much as we have interests in countries we deem important to us, we didnt invent that thats the reality of states, so, we could have interests and like each other or have the same interests while you hate us and blame us for all the misfortunes in your country, while turning a blind eye to how you have managed to mess your country by yourselves.
    I was simply saying, your conclusions and info are not correct as far as our media are concerned, I also pointed out the fact that some of the movies Sudanese like yourself have been ranting about are actually made by a Sudanese director, so I find it strange to just throw the blame on us.
    I also pointed out to a reality, there are many territorial disputes around, the stronger party usually wont adhere to arbitration or whatever and if you raise the issue against us well look around you how many countries have similar issues. You are being naive on that point.

    Against your ill-wishes for us, we have not declared war on any one. Southern Sudanese can do what they want and we have our means and ways as well and do not think for a second that we are not taking into consideration the strong possibility that your country will be split and when this happens, mutual interests is what determines political outcomes and that is again being realistic.

    I hate how our regime supported your criminal president and it came at a price.
    Now, for someone with a country on the verge of breaking up I dnt think you have the means to attack any one and I think you should be caring for the future of your country and praying you wont end up fighting each other more. Good luck

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  12. Sudanese Observer7/11/2010 09:00:00 PM

    You mentioned 'one tribe' in Halayeb wanting restitution to Sudanese sovereignty.

    What is this tribe and what are the other tribes that want to remain under Egyptian illegal military annexation?

    You speak of things you know very little of.

    The International Court of Justice will look at the provision of services by Egypt to the peoples of Halayeb as means of providing evidence for administration, but ultimately that will not determine the case - the history, treaties, chronology and social-anthropology will.

    You also mention the fact that 'strong nations' don't go to arbitration?
    That's untrue.
    Nigeria is West Africa's powerhouse yet it went to arbitration with Cameroon over the Bakassi peninsula and handed the peninsula to Cameroon - a move which increased the standing and respect the region, Africa in general and the international community have towards Nigeria...
    Egypt is in the same league as Nigeria, in fact Egypt is a rival of Nigeria's to Africa's Security Council seat when reform takes place...

    Is there inter-marriage between North and South Sudan?
    Yes.
    Is it significant or a norm?
    No.
    But the Northern Sudanese themselves are the result of miscegenation between Nubian and immigrant Arab tribes and the Dinka and Shilluk amongst others.
    You said you already know the answer when you haven't even been to Sudan.

    And the proportion of Sudanese directors in Egyptian cinema is minute.
    They work within the norms and laws of the media ... 'in Egypt'.
    And yet you say it is the responsibility of those directors who can be counted on one hand to modify the norms and set the standards of the media 'in Egypt'?
    The empirical evidence is there since the days of Ismail Yaseen and Fouad Almuhandis and you 'still' refuse to admit that a problem exists. I hope you know you are hurting your own interests by not modifying your behaviour in something which any casual observer would deem 'wrong' and 'offensive'.
    Black Africa is 'indifferent' towards Egypt, which, whether it likes it or not - is part of the continent and has vital interests that are dependent on the continent.

    I never said that we didn't have our racial issues in Sudan, yet we have the courage to openly discuss them. Besides the issue is not racism in Sudan, it's the non-sensical nature of the idealised way Egypt views Sudan (whilst knowing nothing of it) and at the same continuing to portray the Sudanese and black Africans in a racist manner.

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  13. Only those with weak alibis use offense as a form of defence - the accusation that the Sudanese have an inferiority complex is very last Century...
    Also no one was blaming Egypt for 'all Sudan's misfortune' - stop making things up.

    Egypt's interests in Sudan are known.

    What are Sudan's interests in Egypt????????

    You have not declared war on anyone because
    *You are incapable of doing so - Africom and the US would not allow it and,
    *This will turn the indifference of black Africa towards you to plain enmity.

    Of course you're taking into account the fact that Sudan 'will' split - but personally - I really admire the SPLM and Southerners - they now how to deal with you guys - you can build all the electricity generators and universities - they will still 'never' construct the Jonglei Canal to benefit you.

    I don't like our President so I have no comment on your regime's support for him - it's obviously about vested interests.

    You speak about the partition of Sudan as a problem and for the millionth time - 'we' Sudanese 'don't'.
    We've had peace since 2005 and either we live in peace or we split in peace so stop trying to side-track the main issues.

    I've never come across someone who is so adamant at justifying the unjustifiable - in reference to the racism in the Egyptian media.

    I just saw the closing ceremony of the FIFA 2010 World Cup with Madiba's presence being the highlight of the night.

    And I remembered how the Egyptian directed film Africano's Egyptian actors portrayed South Africa...

    You guys are stuck in a time-warp 'living with the glories of the past' from Muhammad Ali to AbdalNasser - and the continent is overtaking you - particularly on the cogitative plain...

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  14. @Sudanese observer and her split personality, Keep barking and insulting, that will make you more hated on this blog. Hala'ib is and will remain Egyptian like it or not. Your country is so weak and your borders are so porous that you can't even swat a fly if it invaded your territory.

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  15. Hazem - your lack of class speaks for itself.

    With regards to what Sudan has done for Africa - go and ask the Ethiopians where Haile Selassie sought refuge from the Italians,

    And ask Madiba and Thabo Mbeki and the senior ANC membership which countries' passports they travelled with during the 50's and 60's,

    And ask the Eritreans where their independence struggle was born,

    And ask the Congolese which neibouring nation participated most dynamically in consolidating their capacity and in peace-keeping during the 60's,

    And ask the Somalis which country prints their currency,

    And...ask the Algerians which country - at the offical and popular level - played fair and square in their World Cup qualifiers...

    The whole word recognises Halayeb as disputed territory - but borders aside:

    Our 'consumptive uses' of the Nile's (all 3 of them) waters are expanding as our riverine irrigated agriculture expands and,

    Our brethren in South Sudan will 'never' construct the Jonglei Canal to accommodate Egyptian interests.

    What we do we care if we are hated on this blog.

    Better to be hated with dignity than used and abused.

    Our future is Africa.

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  16. Sudanese Observer7/12/2010 01:54:00 AM

    And before you harp on about Sadat's Nubian heritage as an example of the absence of racism in Egypt's media (where's the logic in that?!)

    Let's not forget that one of the reasons why the 1983 Columbia miniseries 'Sadat' was banned in Egypt was because Oscar winning actor Louis Gossett Jr. who was playing the lead role was...African (black) American.

    Also Hazem - go and read the Autobiography of Malcolm X and his impressions of Sudan and the Sudanese.

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  17. @Africanist and her split personality,
    "Hazem - your lack of class speaks for itself"
    Huh I guess we are not the only racist people here degrading other people for their opinion. At least I don't go to other people's blogs and start trashing their country and its people. Lady you know nothing about racism and what it means. When I see someone like you always talking about racism and accusing a large community of being racist without justification, it only means that the person is not comfortable with his or her own skin.

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  18. Once again, skirting the substantive and side-tracking to the petty and the personal...

    You guys want democracy and freedom of speech right?
    Well here you have it - wherever myself or another Sudanese see a misrepresentation on this or any other Egyptian blog - we 'will' comment.

    It's not our problem if your intellectual and dialectical capacity is incapable of accommodating differences.

    I reiterate:

    Only those with weak alibis use offense as a form of defence - the accusation that the Sudanese have an inferiority complex is very last Century...

    And anyone who scrolls up will see who resorted to personal attacks 'split personality' being the operative insult.

    You obviously don't know anything about the Sudanese peoples' character if you think we aren't comfortable in our own skin
    = )

    And the point was made that the 'Egyptian' media is racist - not the Moroccan media or the Algerian media.

    You could learn one or two things from them...

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  19. Sudanese Observer and Africanist:

    Just wanted to let you know that although there is a huge addiction in Egypt to nationalism and Arabism, in addition to statements "historical rights" and the "7000 year old civilization" that affect the culture of Egyptians and how they see themselves in comparison to others (including the Sudanese people), there are many people in Egypt who respect Sudan and the Sudanese people from both the north and the south of Sudan, even if they disagreed with a certain president or government. There are many people in Egypt who understand your positions and your country's needs, and who are willing to negotiate in good faith to reach an agreement acceptable by all parties. And while racism against what we call "blacks" is certainly a serious issue in Egypt, there are people here who look at all people as brothers and equals. I can only hope that the government of Egypt will change the way it deals with Sudan, because that is how things change in Egypt.

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  20. Ayman, you are 100% correct.

    In a recent article written by an Egyptian on the Nile basin disagreement
    Crisis on the Nile: an Egyptian view
    Abdel Monem Said Aly

    http://www.bitterlemons-international.org/inside.php?id=1287

    The author puts Sudan with Egypt in the same category as 'Arab nations' which is incorrect.

    Sudan's first constitution, the 1973 Constitution states defines Sudan as Afro-Arab and the current Interim Constitution 2005 defines Sudan as:
    'a sovereign, democratic, decentralized, multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, and multi-lingual State; committed to the respect and promotion of human dignity and founded on justice, equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms. It is an all embracing homeland wherein races and cultures coalesce and religions co-exist in harmony'

    My question to you is:
    Where are the voices of those Egyptians who understand our positions and needs and who are willing to negotiate in good faith?

    It is extremely insulting of Al-Faki when he says that 'the Sudanese always create problems'.

    We did not create the problem, the unilateral, illeal military annexation by Egyptian forces of Halayeb caused the problem.

    Do something about your media - we are tired of the viscious cycle of complaints - personal apologies - and nothing changing on the ground...

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  21. @Ayman: I dnt get your post bec clearly none of us Egyptians who commented to Sudanese Observer and Africanist, denied there are problems and issues with both sides ect and there is nothing related to love or hate in any of these comments, except in response to the claims by these two alluding that we are hated in Africa ect,
    Im all for better relations with the Sudanese but these two posters are an example of some of the mentalities that in my opinion at the heart of the problem, granted there must be their Egyptian counterparts of course.
    Sudanese Observer and Africanist are accusing us of dreams of greatness but look at their own dreams of the role of Sudan in Africa. They questioned Egypti's contribution to Africa and while they made sure to absolve themselves from their officials wrong doings they insisted on holding us all responsible for the actions of our officials even those who were not native Egyptians and occupying us.

    They are living in the "Im all african phase" and each person is free to associate him/herself with a race, region wtever but they take it as a point against us that we are not African enough in their opinion, repeating words that in effect are based on racial discrimination against us and Northern Africans in general. They present their points of view as facts and refuse to see there are other facts to take into considerations and plz check what they wrote about the territorial dispute against what legal and political experts and sources write about it and you will see my point. They labelled all of us racist and all of our media as racist just based on some incidents and ignored the fact that there is no evidence of a state or public policy against any particular races, they want us to change they way we joke bec they cant know the difference bet a joke and a racist remark. They ask us to do something they themselves couldnt do among themselves and towards others and that is eliminate racism completely, plz tell me which country doesnt have some of those who are racist?!!

    They mocked our legal rights in the Nile Water but got angry bec we wouldnt agree with their view point about the territorial dispute.
    The didnt like Hazem's "personal" remark but failed to see how personal they have taken this post and every comment.

    You talk with them based on how most of us feel that there is a special bond, they say we dnt like it we like the Ethiopians or whatever, you talk to them on the basis of known state interests they pretend that at this day and age a country shouldnt care for its interests in a neighboring country and questions why we care for wts happening in Sudan and claim they have no interests in Egypt, I'd like to hear what some political science professors would say about that naive evaluation of a states interest.

    In summation, they are not here to converse they are here to complain and blame it all on one side and they think we are against them voicing their opinion and none of us wrote so, we simply replied in the spirit of freedom of expression.

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  22. "The International Criminal Court has issued a second arrest warrant for Sudan's President Omar al-Bashir - this time for charges of genocide."
    Africanist and her split personality, Do you ever feel ashamed that your president is a fugitive of justice and a felon?. Before you accuse Egypt and Egyptians of being racists, look at yourselves first. You murdered thousands of your own people to take over their land. I don't think you or your likes have any rights in Hala'ib and if you do, it has been terminated by our brave Egyptian army.

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  23. Sudanese Observer7/12/2010 10:30:00 PM

    "Sudanese Observer and Africanist are accusing us of dreams of greatness but look at their own dreams of the role of Sudan in Africa."

    What dreams of greatness?

    We don't have a doctrine of 'manifest destiny' that sees Sudan as the divinely appointed leader - unike Egypt.

    Both Egyptian Secularists and Egyptian Islamists share this vision of a 'manifest destiny'.
    A Secularist example is Heikal who is stuck in a Nasserite time-warp.
    There are various Islamist examples including a disciple of Kishk whose follwers posted a vile, racist video on youtube in which he laid out the strategy for 'countering the consiparicies' that are meant to weaken Egypt's pre-dominance.
    These strategis included the mass migration of Egyptians to South Sudan and their marriage with Southern Sudanese women - even though they're so dark that the only white thing about them was their eyes and teeth...
    I'd like to see him try to move to South Sudan...

    I'm not Egyptian so I'm not really bothered about what social engineering doctrine Egyptians are breast-fed or embrace.

    What myself and other Sudanese reject, is the 'use' of Sudan as a 'means' for the realisation of that manifest destiny.

    As anonymous stated, each State looks out for its interests, and we are campaigning for Sudan looking out for its interests.

    Egypt is at peace with Israel, yet when Upstream Nile States demand their legitimate rights, many Egyptians cry 'Israeli conspiracy' - well myself and other Sudanese don't and won't buy it.

    http://www.bitterlemons-international.org/inside.php?id=1289

    Even 'if' we had a doctrine of 'manifest destiny' which we don't - our land and population suit us just fine - even with the secession of South Sudan, we don't want anything from Egypt. Egypt hasn't offered us any tangible benefit in the 1959 Agreement and all dealings with it seem to result in an inequitable result of big win for Egypt - loss for Sudan.

    Egypt, on the other hand wants Sudan to grow food to feed its population and Egypt wants Sudan to drain the largest wetlands in the world so that she can have more water - I'm sorry but our interests come first so that is not going to happen.

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  24. Sudanese Observer7/12/2010 10:30:00 PM

    "They questioned Egypti's contribution to Africa and while they made sure to absolve themselves from their officials wrong doings they insisted on holding us all responsible for the actions of our officials even those who were not native Egyptians and occupying us."

    We stated our opposition to our government's foreign policy in the 90's (even though many Southerners very ironically liked the hard-line that Khartoum had towards Egypt) and we stated our opposition to any complicity to harm any head of State, in reference to the attempt to assassinate your President.

    I also never questioned Egypt's contribution to Africa I asked you to *reflect* on Egypt's contribution to Africa and how Egyptians view Africa and Africans at large, and how Egypt portrays black Africa and black Africans in its media...

    "they take it as a point against us that we are not African enough in their opinion, repeating words that in effect are based on racial discrimination against us and Northern Africans in general."

    Please don't put words into my proverbial mouth.
    Moroccans and Algerians are North Africans yet they do not portray black Africans in a racist manner like 'Egyptians' - it's just about 'Egyptians', there's no wider label to fall back on.
    The empirical evidence available - compare the Egyptian and Moroccan film industry in this regard...

    "they want us to change they way we joke bec they cant know the difference bet a joke and a racist remark."

    Damn right we want you to change the way you joke vis-a-vis dark skinned and black Africa and black Africans because it's not funny.
    It's offensive and racist and any casual observer would say so - stop being the exception to the global trend - get with the times and sort yourselves out.

    And there doesn't have to be a government policy 'encouraging' racism, it's just as bad to turn a blind eye to it - change it, or suffer more indifference.

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  25. Sudanese Optimist7/13/2010 07:19:00 AM

    Zeinobia - what a misleading header!

    Halayeb was never yours to give away, your armed forces militarily occupied it in the mid-90's.

    Don't you use this argument against your North-Eastern neighbour..?

    Well 'we' don't have double standards so the argument applies to the case of Halayeb as much as it does to any other 'occupied territory(ies)'

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  26. Sudanese Observer7/26/2010 07:23:00 AM

    In Sudan and amongst our compatriots we have a very old saying that Sudan is often Egypt's scapegoat الحيطة (الحائط) القصيرة
    The whole world say, and Foreign Affairs magazine wrote about how Sudan was dragged into the Algeria-Egypt media-war over their World Cup 2010 final qualifying match.
    And Sudan and the Sudanese were blamed for Egypt's loss.
    We were 'bribed' by the Algerians is one of the many allegations that was made.

    In any case I just read that the reason why President Mubarak chose not to attended the Cen-Sad summit in Chad, was because he didn't want to meet Sudan's President Bashir in light of his statement on June 30th that 'Halayeb is Sudanese and will always be Sudanese'.

    Egyptian president unhappy over Bashir’s remarks on Halayeb: official

    July 25, 2010 (CAIRO) — The Egyptian president Mohamed Hosni Mubarak skipped the summit of the Community of Sahel-Saharan states (CENSAD) held in Chad this week to avoid meeting his Sudanese counterpart, said an Egyptian presidential source.


    Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak (AP)Mubarak’s absence from the CENSAD summit and the African Union (AU) summit in Kampala prompted questions on his health status.

    An article in The Washington Times this week said Mubarak was thought by most Western intelligence agencies to be suffering from terminal cancer affecting his stomach and pancreas.

    It cited a central European intelligence officer as saying the 82-year-old leader could have less than a year to live.

    The source told the Cairo-based Al-Shurooq newspaper that Mubarak’s absence "is somewhat related" to the participation of Bashir after making remarks last month asserting sovereignty over the disputed border region of Halayeb.

    The statements made were contrary to the previous understandings reached between Mubarak and Bashir, the source added.

    "Halayeb is Sudanese and will stay Sudanese" Bashir told crowds at the coastal town of Port Sudan last June marking the 21st anniversary of his military coup.
    _________________________________________

    We all know that President Mubarak's health is under scrutiny and that he is not young and had some medical setbacks recently.

    But even before the most recent onset of medical problems, President Mubarak didn't visit Africa often...

    His most recent visit was to Uganda some years back to try and stem the momentum of the Upstream Nile States - we all know that course of action failed with the signing of the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement.

    President Mubarak travels more frequently to Europe - to economically troubled Greece and to Italy and France and in the past couple of years to Saudi Arabia and by road to Libya - I think he just did not want to go to Chad, or to Uganda.

    I don't believe that 'avoiding' other Heads of State is or has ever been President Mubarak's style.

    Once again - Sudan has been made the scapegoat.

    Just a note to Egypt's future President whoever they may be - 'all' of the Sudanese political forces whether in power or in the opposition consider Halayeb's sovereignty to be Sudanese and the current situation to be problematic - so a better means of engagement must be found as opposed to 'avoiding' the officials...avoiding the issue.

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  27. So you are saying Mubarak is afraid from Al Bashir whom he saved his ass !! Quite interesting especially Al Bashir came to Cairo himself , quite interesting that the Sudanese officials justified saying that despite he spoke about Hala'yib he said that our relations with Egypt are more important
    It is well known that Mubarak does not visit Sudan or African countries so often after his assassination attempt which Sudan provided shelter for those behind it if you remember
    Do not be so flattered , it is his health
    I think your problem is not Halay'ib or the next president of Egypt , your problem is a country on the verge of dissolution and you think a tiny triangle you will save it ,this is your true problem

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  28. Sudanese Observer, your comments are always interesting.

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  29. Sudanese Observer7/26/2010 07:22:00 PM

    Zeinobia - no offence but for someone who puts so much work and effort and research into investigative blogging - sometimes you say things that are more suited to uneducated and intellectually challenged people - first the melodramatic knowing accusation of 'hating *us* from the deepest part of your hearts' and now a President being 'scared' of another President!!???!!

    For real?!

    Of course it's his health!

    This actually proves that we can't mutually understand 'anything'.

    I was saying that not wanting to meet President Bashir is a *lame excuse* by whoever of President's Mubarak's team that made it up.

    Who is trying to flatter who?!
    Everyone knows Sudan has 'no bearing whatsoever' on the decision by President Mubarak not to visit Chad and Uganda and that the reason is...his health.

    It was an Egyptian diplomat who used the Sudan card as an excuse, not myself or any other Sudanese...

    Even before the assassination attempt President Mubarak's trips to Africa were far less than his trips to peripheral Mediterranean States, powerful States in Europe, the Levant and the United States.
    He surprisingly visited Juba, the capital of South Sudan some years ago to garner support for Egyptian interests but I don't think the strategy worked.

    And whilst we're at it how did President Mubarak save President Bashir's proverbial 'ass'?

    President Bashir is the Sudanese politician who is most in tune with Egypt's interests.

    President Bashir made the decision to side with Egypt against Sudan's natural neighbours with whom Sudan enjoys 'dynamic, grassroots' relations in the wake of the decision by 5 Upstream States to sign up to the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement whilst Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi and 'all' his Ansar called for a revision of the 1959 Agreement and Sudan signing up to the NBCFA - a call myself and other Sudanese fervently support!

    The Sudan Peoples' Liberation Movement is playing a smart delay tactic game with Egypt and has made a secret top level decision 'not' to construct the Jonglei Canal in order to add the amount of Nile water available to...Egypt. And their first decision post-secession will be to sign up to the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement.

    And the decision to give the peoples of South Sudan the option of secession if this was their will was taken by the Sudanese opposition in the 90's, before the Machakos Protocol in 2003.

    The Sudanese 'clearly' do not see the amicable split of the country in two as a problem, if this is the will of the Southerners.

    Referring to the political decision by all of Sudan's political class to give the peoples of South Sudan the option of self-determination as if it were a something negative is extremely insulting to the Sudanese in the South and their historical struggle and to the Sudanese in the South and the North who gave up over two million of their sons and daughters fighting an intractable war.

    Commenting in such a manner on something you obviously don't know much about is superficial drivel.

    Your problem is denial and the inability to accept differing opinions and the automatic assumption that differences of opinion = 'hatred'.

    I reiterate:
    Just a note to Egypt's future President whoever they may be - 'all' of the Sudanese political forces whether in power or in the opposition consider Halayeb's sovereignty to be Sudanese and the current situation to be problematic - so a better means of engagement must be found as opposed to 'avoiding' the officials...avoiding the issue.

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  30. @Sudanese observer , no one in the media back home spoke or said that he canceled the trip because of Al Bashir ,they did not say anything at all so I will not pay attention to what Abu Gait men say because they are idiots
    another thing believe I wish our relations would be better than that , avoiding Hala'yib talk will not solve the problem as long as you recognize it from your territory and we recognize it as ours

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  31. Sudanese Observer7/26/2010 10:06:00 PM

    OK I also wish we had better, 'normal' relations like other States - South Korea and Japan, Spain and Portugal and I also agree that not talking about the Halayeb problem will only make it worse - the only way of solving the Halayeb dispute is to take the dispute to international arbitration.

    Egypt agreed to international arbitration with Israel over Taba.

    North and South Sudan agreed to international arbitration over Abyei.

    Why won't Egypt accept international arbitration over Halayeb which is nothing but an open air prison since Egyptian forces militarily occupied it?!

    p.s.
    It's quite worrying when you call your senior diplomats idiots!

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  32. @Sudanese Observer:

    "p.s.
    It's quite worrying when you call your senior diplomats idiots!"
    seriously!!!! coming from someone from a country with a wanted president. Get off your high horse and realize we are not in a region were we get to chose or elect those representing us. For someone who claims to know it all about Egypt and Egyptians, you seem to have missed the part were it is widely reported and talked about how much we dislike our current top diplomat and are generally unhappy with the way our diplomacy has been since Moussa left.

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  33. Sudanese Observer7/27/2010 01:31:00 AM

    For the millionth time 'we' don't like our President - he won elections that were boycotted by the major opposition parties - so the ICC indictment doesn't affect us - or him apparently since he was in Rome Statute signatory Chad last week.

    I wasn't being or trying to be snide when I said it's quite worrying when you call your senior diplomats idiots!

    Who would you like to see taking their place? Amr Adib?

    Egypt has one of the oldest diplomatic services in the region.

    Egypt 'is seen' to be a nation of institutions when it comes to policies and decision-making - for better or worse.

    When did I ever claim to know everything about Egypt and Egyptians?

    Personally I don't like Moussa, I think he should be changed and leadership of the Arab League should be rotational.

    I see him as doing nothing but advancing 'Egyptian' interests - the same cannot be said about Al-Atiyah having a bias for Qatari interests in the GCC, or the Malawian President in the AU...

    In any case isn't Aboul Gheit a seasoned diplomat?

    I just wonder if too much emphasis is being put on the individuals as opposed to other externalities such as the health of President Mubarak, the war in Lebanon etc...

    I really was not being condescending but I guess that's the way you're conditioned to think and engage with others and that's what you assume others to be as well.

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  34. @Sudanese Observer: in every post you wrote you blame us for what our officials/politicians did, despite the fact that almost 90% of comments by Egyptians here reflect how we are at odds with most policies and how Egyptians have been very vocal about the fact that we do not have a saying in how the country is being run & are seeking change. When we point out to stuff done by your officials, or your president you say I dnt like him, I didnt approve this and approve that. My point remains, non of us in the region have a saying in how our countries are run. So, instead of attacking each other may be just may be its more beneficial for each one of us to focus on how we could change the status quo in our respective countries.

    All these hours of activism against Egypt and not even an attempt to rally your ppl to have the president step down, may be just may be this would give a bit of incentive to those in the South not to break the unity of your
    country? Too much focus on Egypt and so little focus on your own countrys' affairs.

    "I just wonder if too much emphasis is being put on the individuals as opposed to other externalities such as the health of President Mubarak, the war in Lebanon etc..."

    :D You must be joking!! these issues were not covered!!! You clearly do not know much about our papers or tv progs covering such affairs, may be bec you are so focused on Amr Adeeb and chasing illusions of discrimination in our media. Also, rest assured both persons and policies get their share of focus, coverage and dismay from the ppl.

    Im replying to you based on what you wrote yourself. Expressing concern for wt Z said as if you are blessed w proper officials, reflects how you do not even realize you are not at a better position that us as far as your officials are concerned.

    I dnt care how you feel about Moussa as heading the failing LAS, my comment was about how at his time our foreign ministry was able to act as such, this is a wide spread believe among Egyptians. The 2 that followed after him are viewed as weak and no we are not only talking individuals we are aware of how this is bec of the vision of the regime. The matter of the fact is that several important files have been taken out of the control of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and given to other entities to deal with, again this is a well known fact.

    Last, about your attempt at being funny, you are so obsessed with Amr Adeeb, may be he should be one of your top officials. For me, hes just one of many tv presenters, I certainly do not shape my opinion of the issues he brings forward in his show based on his own opinion. More important just like you and me he is human so, he has his own mistakes as well. I really pray you get to meet him or talk to him, may be that will spare us from the spamming of every Z topic by the same ideas.

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  35. Sudanese Observer7/27/2010 01:55:00 PM

    I find it very interesting how an American visitor to this blog enjoys the comments posted by Sudanese - I'm sure he finds them insightful - and how Egyptians are 'suggesting' that these comments stop.

    OK you also don't like your officials and policies except:

    When it comes to defending the non-referral of the dispute over Halayeb to international arbitration? and,

    when it comes to defending the way Egypt has acted since 1959 with the other Nile Basin States?

    Let's try to get somewhere with these two points.

    And did I 'ever' say we're blessed with proper officials??...
    Did I even imply it???...
    I was just saying that if 'you' think and call your diplomats 'idiots' - things are worse than I thought.
    And perhaps it's a policy based problem as opposed a reflection of the merit of the individuals concerned.

    **********
    All these hours of activism against Egypt and not even an attempt to rally your ppl to have the president step down, may be just may be this would give a bit of incentive to those in the South not to break the unity of your
    country? Too much focus on Egypt and so little focus on your own countrys' affairs.
    *********

    You clearly do not know much about the history of Sudan - the civil war started in 1955, a year before parliament voted for and declared independence - it's not about the current President - and once more the entire Sudanese political class - opposition and government have 'agreed' on the principle of self-determination for the peoples of South Sudan. Official Egypt is the party which is most worried about the prospect of an independent South Sudan because that could destroy what minute chance exists anyway of the completion of the Jonglei Canal...

    You mention 'illusions' of discrimination - so you're saying there's no discrimination in the Egyptian media and the use of blackface and the way the Sudanese and other black Africans are treated is OK?

    Let's try and get somewhere on this point too...

    You completely missed by point about focusing on the individual - you imply that regardless of externalities the fact that files have been moved from the Foreign Ministry to Intelligence means Moussa was better for the job!

    As for Amr Adib, you have 'no clue' how much 'damage' he caused and loss of goodwill he brought about in the image of Egypt and Egyptians.
    The number of times he's quoted and brought up on this blog suggests that there's a level of admiration for him that he isn't worthy of.

    So:
    Arbitration for Halayeb?
    Does racism 'exist' in the Egyptian media?
    It's clear Egypt's policies have failed in Africa / the Nile Basin / Sudan - why do think this is so?

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