Monday, October 4, 2010

Regarding the Sudanese Detainees in Our Jails

I promised here that whenever I find information about the Sudanese detainees in our jails , I will post it and despite that promise I was accused of being biased and selective because I am following the case of Syrian Tal , anyhow I do not need this introduction to defend myself or anything on the contrary I just want to remind you with the whole issue because I found some information related to Sudanese detainees in our jail.

I found this information in the wonderful activist Amira Al-Tahawy’s blog , there are Sudanese detainees in our jails from refugees and they are suffering a lot and they need our help and the help of the UNCHR.

First of all there is a list with the Sudanese detained refugees’ names. This list is classified by the cases the refugees/detainees are involved in like the Hezbollah case , the human trafficking case ,the Mustafa Mahmoud incident case and other cases. Most of these refugees are from Darfur as far as I could tell.

Second according to a post Amira published on the 27th of August 2010 , there are 15 refugees detained currently in Egypt.

Third there is a Sudanese refugee who is going to be transferred to Sudan despite his life could be in danger there.

For the record none of these names are related to Hala’ib , of course we consider and believe that Hala’ib is an Egyptian territory thus the activists there regardless of their views are considered Egyptians and thus they are Egyptian citizens and will be found in these lists as refugees.

For those who accuse the Egyptian bloggers and activists as selective , Amira is the same wonderful lady who told us in our Egyptian blogosphere about Tal and her case.


  1. Sudanese Observer10/04/2010 02:43:00 PM

    For the record none of these names are related to Hala’ib , of course we consider and believe that Hala’ib is an Egyptian territory thus the activists there regardless of their views are considered Egyptians and thus they are Egyptian citizens and will be found in these lists as refugees.

    Selectiveness personified.

    Your consideration of Halayeb as being Egyptian territory (which is founded on ignorance) is like Israel's consideration of Judea and Samaria (The West Bank) to be legitimate Israeli land.

    Then again for some unknown reason your country was willing to go to international arbitration with Israel over Taba, yet it refuses to do the same with Sudan over Halayeb.

    You were never straightforward enough to the answer the question:

    Do you think your government should take the dispute over illegally occupied Halayeb to international arbitration - or not?

    Your argument on the Egypitanness of the detainees is like the argument over the motley crew of detainees at Camp X-Ray.

    Was Sami Al-Haj an enemy combatant?

    If the Sudanese detainees in Halayeb had considered themselves Egyptian and if Egypt was in Halayeb 'legally' - they wouldn't be imprisoned!

    For the record:

    5 Halayeb civil society activists have died whilst being incarcerated by Egyptian security forces, most notably the former head of Halayeb Council Al-Taher Muhammad Hasaay who was just 40 yeaars old and was tortured so badly he needed an operation which was carried out in the Cairo hospital where he died.

    Is this excusable Zeinobia?
    Or does he not deserve a post like Khalid...???

    Other Halayeb civil society activists who remain incarcerated without trial by Egyptian security forces include: include Taher Muhammad Hasaay, Al-Taher's brother who is continually incarcerated and set free,
    Muhammad Eissa Saeed who has been incarcerated without trial for the past 6 years,
    Hashim Othman who has been incarcerated without trial for the past 2 years,
    Muhammad Saleem 5 years,
    Ali Eissa Abu Eissa 5 years,
    Hashim Othman 2 years,
    Muhammad Tahir Muhammad Saleh 2 years and there are others.

    You can do better research than that - then again you're selective about your causes.

  2. I second what Sudanese Observer has said.

    Regardless of what you think the nationality of the detainees from Halayeb is - they deserve mention and you have *refused* to give them any mention - continuing with your stubborn, selectiveness in covering which illegal detainee and victim of torture deserves to be recognised - and which one doesn't.

    Because Khalid in Egyptian he deserves a campaign to highlight how he died after being beaten by Egyptian security sources.

    However Taher Hassay, a Beja civil society leader and former head of the municipal council of Halayeb - *does not* deserve for his torture to death to be highlighted because according to 'you' Halayeb is Egyptian which makes him Egyptian even though according to *him* and those with him - Halayeb is illegally occupied Sudanese territory and he is Sudanese.

    This level of selectiveness is morally bankrupt.

    Although the blame for the illegal military occupation of Halayeb lays squarely with the President of Egypt, I blame our government in Khartoum for many things including its budding ties with Egypt.

    Allowing Egyptians to travel freely and work freely and settle in Sudan is *wrong* - in light of the illegal Egyptian military occupation of Halayeb and the way Sudanese refugees are treated in Egypt - shot at like fish in a barrel when crossing the border and portrayed in a racist manner by the Egyptian media for more than half a Century.

    No government rules forever - the impending independence of South Sudan is coming soon - and when South Sudan stabilises itself, they will help those of us in the North (the silent majority) to take charge - and when we do - things will be very different.

    The Southern Sudanese may have an issue with the successive governments in Khartoum - but they have no issue with the peoples of the North.

    This is in direct contrast with how they feel towards 'both' successive Egyptian governments 'and' the people.

    See 4:30 of this talk by a Southern Sudanese intellectual re: Halayeb

  3. To the 2 comments above, I read Z's post and understood that she meant they are not listed since they are not foreigners and the list she talked about was about foreigners. Did I get that correct Z?
    Also, again and again, deviating from the main issue of the post and insisting on labelling a different opinion about Halayed as based on ignorance along with the normal insults to this blogger and other Egyptian bloggers. If Halayed is Sudanese why isnt your gov demanding info and trials or release for their so-called citizens?!!!!

  4. You are more than correct dear anonymous commenter ,anyhow I will try my best to get any info about those Egyptian citizens

  5. The government of Sudan has never officially acquiesced to the illegal, military occupation of Halayeb and Musa Muhammad Ahmad, a former rebel, Beja tribal chief and Presidential advisor has called for the dispute to be taken to international arbitration in exactly the same way Egypt did with *Israel*.

    If the detainees thought they were Egyptian, they would not be in Egyptian jails in Cairo and elsewhere.

    They are not listed because of selectiveness - plain and simple and there is nothing more insulting than double-standards when it comes to illegal military occupation - which all the Sudanese - including the opposition consider Halayeb to be subject to.

    This is the legacy of the current administration of Egypt.

    Occupation is occupation - whether in Yarushalem or Halayeb.

  6. OK so show us where they're listed then...

  7. Sudanese Optimist10/04/2010 09:32:00 PM

    For the record it's HalayeB not Halayed!!!
    And those detainees don't have Egyptian passports and some of them served in the regional legislature so how can they be Egyptians?!

  8. @ The two Sudanese: Oh wow, you caught a typo, hurraahh, HalayeB great, are you happy now!!
    Now, lets talk as grown ups. Stop trying to force your own ideas about Halayeb on us and stick to the main subject here. You accused Z and Egy bloggers of not caring and then when she did check for info you came back and attacked her!! I asked a simple question, based on facts why didnt the Sudanese gov demand either an immediate release of its so-called citizens or sought to check on them, if they are Sudanese as you claim?!! Also, why do you keep on throwing accusations here, when it was clear in the post that Z was saying their names were not in the lists since they are considered Egyptians?!! This makes sense to me and Id say to other readers. The lists she talked about are those for non-Egyptians and if the regime considers Halayieb to be Egyptian then it makes sense those detained from their will be treated as Egyptians. I dnt know whether to laugh or cry to your statement that they wouldnt be their if they were Egyptians!!! Are you serious here? Do you know how many Egyptians are in custody, be it legally or mostly illegally detained bec they are activists?!!
    Last but not least, its called Al Quds and Palestine not Yarushalem, but as I have my doubts Im sure you see things differently.

  9. @Sudanese comments: whats with the go Z fetch us info?!! What kind of manners do you have?!!! No one here including Z, owes you any thing, be polite to others just like they are polite to you.

  10. Sudanese Observer10/05/2010 07:42:00 PM

    For the record the creator of this blog said she had never heard of any political detainees from Halayeb.

    We provided her with the evidence and she said she would investigate.

    She found another Egyptian blogger who had published lists, predominantly of Sudanese refugees - and referred the readership to the other blogger's lists.

    The observation that the creator of this blog is selective in her causes still stands.

    She mentions Syrian, Palestinian and Egyptian political prisoners - and not those who are imprisoned because they are fighting for the liberation of Halayeb from Egyptian occupation.

  11. I asked a simple question, based on facts why didnt the Sudanese gov demand either an immediate release of its so-called citizens or sought to check on them, if they are Sudanese as you claim?

    The Eastern Front, which is a component of the government in the legislative and executive components after last April's elections has demanded the following:

    The submission of the dispute over Halayeb to international arbitration in the same way that Egypt dealt with its dispute with *Israel* over Taba,

    The freedom of movement of the peoples of Halayeb,

    Civil and political freedom for the peoples of Halayeb, including the release of its civil society detainees and the cessation of political harassment.

    The head of the Eastern Front, Beja Tribe's leader and Presidential Advisor Musa Muhammad Ahmad attempted to visit Halayeb last December - however the Egyptian occupation forces withdrew from the fence that was erected to separate the area.
    He spoke to Sudanese troops who are still stationed in the area since its illegal occupation in the mid-90's.

    السلطات المصرية تمنع مساعد البشير من زيارة حلايب

    حلايب:محمد عثمان
    الأربعاء 9 ديسمبر 2009م، 22 ذو الحجة 1430هـ العدد 5912

    As for Yarushalem - it's called al-Quds because that's what you've been told?
    In the same way that the occupation of the Golan is unjust - because that's what you've been told.
    But the illegal military occupation of Halayeb is OK because it's Egypt doing the occupation..

    Logic and morality don't work like that.

  12. @Sudanese Observer

    You continuously deviate from the main issue of the post and talk about Halayeb. This is very annoying. You should thank Zenobia for her efforts instead of falsely accusing her.
    Do you know how many detainees are there in Egypt?
    I wont give you a number so that you dont get surprised.
    Moreover, it is not because you are convinced that Halayeb is Sudanese, that Zenobia (or anybody else) must agree. It is you who is selective, pleading Halayeb case over and over.

    I regret to say that you are the fruit of decades of British brainwashing. Do you know what were the boundaries before British occupation, and before Muhammad Ali reign?

    Nationalism is a curse as tribalism and racism are. As I told you before, I recognize there were many mistakes in the relations between Egypt and Sudan. I personally advocate a fair union between them.

  13. Sudanese Observer10/07/2010 07:01:00 AM


    If you had been following our comments you would have seen that we complained about the lack of recognition by Egyptian bloggers - including this one - of the plight of 'Sudanese' civil society members from Halayeb - 2 of whom died under torture...

    It's very suspect when Palestinian, Syrian and Egyptian political prisoners deserve mention but these particular ones don't.

    The bottom line is that Zeinobia does not want to mention the Sudanese civil society activists incarcerated and tortured to death by Egyptian security forces because she is not capable of contemplating Egypt having made a mistake in its unilateral, aggressive, illegal, military occupation of Halayeb - the fact that she refuses to convey her views on whether Egypt should take the dispute to international arbitration like it did with Israel over Taba is ample evidence of this.

    An Egypt that occupies land and does relinquish it fits in with her ultra-patriotic delusions of historical grandeur...

    If only she knew a little bit of history and Egypt's bitter experiences in trying to occupy Sudanese territory and subjugate the Sudanese...

    Let's talk in terms of reality.

    How do you see the dispute over Halayeb being solved?

    Do you think that your government should take the dispute to international arbitration just like it took its dispute over Taba?
    If either yes or no - why?

    The unilateral Egyptian aggression that occurred in the mid-90's with the occupation of Halayeb is a problem in Sudanese-Egyptian relations.

    We live in a world where international sovereignty is recognised - even in areas where there is a customs / economic / freedom of movement union like the EU...

    How do you propose the problem over Halayeb is solved?

    You said:
    Do you know what were the boundaries before British occupation, and before Muhammad Ali reign?

    Yes - there were no fixed boundaries but the area inhabited by the Beja was known, the Nubian Kingdoms in Sudan were known geographically and their borders corresponded to various cataracts, the confluence of the Blue and White Niles and parts of the Blue Nile basin.

    There were a number of Kingdoms / Tribal entities in Sudan - the Beja, Fazughli, Soba, Dongola and in the west Darfur.

    There was mutual respect and recognition of the other and Muhammad Ali changed that irreversibly.

    You're right to point out that many mistakes were made in the relations between Sudan and Egypt but how is the reality promising?

    You advocate a fair union - I'm assuming between North Sudan and Egypt since South Sudan is going to secede...

    A fair union based on what and for what objective when Egyptians know nothing of Sudan?

    And when the Egyptian media portrays the Sudanese in a racist manner - what do you think about that?

    A fair union governed by whom and how...?

    A fair union for whose benefit?

    'Nationalism is a curse' - and is there any group of people that is more nationalistic than you - who believe that they are special and destined to lead past, present and future...?

  14. @Sudanese Obs: a)go have ur own blog and rant there, b) No one owes u any thing c) learn to be polite to others.

  15. @Sudanese Observer

    Media: you are right and I am sorry for that, but I think it is a doomed heritage from Muhammad Ali or Ottoman Empire or Mamluk Sultanate. Unfortunately I am not a specialist in sociology to explain or understand what happened in the Egyptian society.

    Nationalism: I refuse nationalism when it leads to intolerance. I do love Egypt and Sudan, but I try to be as objective as possible. I never said you are right or wrong concerning Halayeb: I am not a specialist in International Law to be fair enough (Personally I dont recognize boundaries that were imposed by foreign powers, and I pray the day will come when the concept of boundaries will change).

    Union: "A fair union based on what and for what objective when Egyptians know nothing of Sudan?"
    I dont know if you visited Egypt recently, but do you think Egyptian people know anything of the history of Egypt? They certainly would not be interested in the history of Sudan because they simply are not aware of their heritage (except for events and speeches). Unfortunately it is the truth. I am not justifying ignorance, I am just analyzing the situation.

    I would be interested to know more about:
    -Egypt/Sudan relations

    If you have references, I would be grateful if you send them to me on

  16. Sudanese Optimist10/08/2010 12:51:00 AM

    @ Sakrquraysh

    It's encouraging that you concur that there is a huge gap in understanding by Egyptians of anything Sudanese.

    You may think that Egyptians don't know much about their own history - but in the case of Sudan not only is there ignorance but sometimes latent disrespect when the Mahdiyya and the independence struggle are overlooked.

    Any talk of any type of union or special ties therefore becomes obsolete until this issue of 'understanding' is seriously tackled.

    You also skirted the question on Halayeb. In light of the deadlock and diametrically opposing official and unofficial views on the issue:

    Do you think your government should take the *dispute* to International Arbitration in the same way it took its dispute with *Israel* over Taba to international arbitration???

  17. @Sudanese Observer

    The gap is not limited to understanding anything Sudanese. There are gaps inside the Egyptian society itself (certainly it is the same in Sudan).

    As I said, I agree with you concerning racism (disrespect). But it is the same with Egyptians from Upper Egypt (Se'id) and Bedouins. I heard in Sudan you have the same problems: racism between different factions. So it is not proper to Egypt. I hope one day I would be able to visit and know Sudan.

    I did not skirt the question on Halayeb: I asked for more references to understand the problem; I am not an expert in International Law, nor in Political Sciences. I saw maps that show Halayeb as a part of Egypt (before 1902), others as a part of Sudan (after 1902). As I told you, I dont think that boudaries imposed by foreign powers should be considered as final ones; there should be enough cooperation between countries like Egypt and Sudan to solve such a problem.

    I would like to know more about this and hope to find unbiased references (even biased ones would be interesting).

  18. Sudanese Observer10/09/2010 03:10:00 AM

    Refer to previous comments on Halayeb and to the case law of the International Court of Justice.

    What do you mean cooperation?
    Cooperation over a dispute??
    International arbitration is the logical solution - just like what Egypt did with Israel over Taba.

    And here you can see that there is not going to be a lot of cooperation taking place - in any field:

    Sudan abruptly cancels high level meeting with Egypt

    Yes many Egyptians say they make fun of each other - that's something between yourselves as compatriots.

    We are a significant other - so your mis-treatment of each other is no excuse for not knowing what's right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable in this day and age with dealing with...'the other'.

    Yes racism exists everywhere - as does tribalism in Sudan, even in the South.

    However we are a very heterogenous nation - the divisions that exist in some of our minds don't make sense in many cases.

    Where we differ greatly in Egypt is that we are not nor have we been a traditionally socially stratified society - even in ancient Nubia.

  19. @Sudanese Observer

    I dont understand when you say "it's something between yourselves between patriots". Disrespect shall be condemned in all cases.

    Of course there will be no cooperation in the current context. I hope this will change soon.

    Personally I will search for studies about Halayeb (not articles in newspapers), but I dont think International Arbitration will solve anything (It might be an option but not the best one).

  20. Sudanese Observer10/10/2010 02:48:00 AM

    It is something between you and your compatriots means it is something for you to solve between yourselves as Egyptians.

    The stereotyping and image problems any nation has *within itself* cannot be used as an excuse to justify the wrong way that nation portrays and deals with 'the other'.

    We have our own issues, but we do not portray our neighbours in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Kenya or Uganda in the insulting and demeaning way that the Egyptian media portrays us - the Sudanese and anything linked to black Africa.

    When you say international arbitration won't solve anything:

    Didn't international arbitration solve Egypt's dispute with *Israel* over Taba?

    Isn't the route of international arbitration the one responsible nations take to solve their international disputes, according to Public International Law?

    Why was international arbitration OK with *Israel* but not OK with Sudan?

    International arbitration is a form of 3rd party mediation - whereby 'neutral' parties devise solutions for disputes between States with entrenched positions.

    The illegal Egyptian military occupation of Halayeb by the current Egyptian regime is a problem and there will be no meaningful cooperation until it is solved.


Thank You for your comment
Please keep it civilized here, racist and hateful comments are not accepted
The Comments in this blog with exclusion of the blog's owner does not represent the views of the blog's owner.