Egypt refuses officially Eastern Libya’s semiautonomous state and is standing by one united LibyaEgypt’s minister of foreign affair Mohamed Amr stated this very important statement last night on Nile News channel as a comment on the declaration of Cyrenaica or Berqa as we know it in Arabic and in Egypt the semiautonomous state from its side.
We are not here about a town that announcing its state , we are speaking about East Libya , which is our West in Egypt
From historical point of view Cyrenaica is the stronghold of the Senussi house and in 1949 the British convinced Idris Senussi to declare the principality of Cyrenaica. In 1951 Idris Senussi became the king of Libya that had become a federal monarchy till 1969
This is why Libyans in the West believe that Ahmed El Senussi is dreaming of becoming the new ruler of Libya and thus he is following the same steps of his relative. I wonder who convinced the Senussis this time !!? Ironically enough Ahmed El Senussi is among the the representative of the Arab spring who got the Sakharov prize for freedom of thought. “This is not good for dear Asmaa Mahfouz”
Libyans fear that the old map of Libya till 1951 will be their new map : 3 states of Cyrenaica , Fezzan and Tripolitania
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| The old map of Libya |
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| Libya's population and energy production |
“Our martyrs did not die so Libya would be divided” a frequent comment I found in the past 3 days. Some activists are calling protests through out the country against the federation. Indeed there were protests in several towns in Libya including Tripoli itself.
Here is a video for a protest on March 5th in Tripoli.
Tripoli : No for federation respect the martyrs
El Beida : No for federation for the sake of the martyrs
El Beida : Against the federation
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| The statement |
Here is a protest in Benghazi from last Sunday , it seems to me that it was the Libyan army and Navy protest against federation.
Benghazi : The Libyan army against federation
Benghazi : No centralization , no for federation , yes for United Libya
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| Senussi in Qaddafi's suit |
Of course the saddest thing I have read is how the Libyans will think that Qaddafi was right when he warned them that their country will be divided after him.Ahmed Senussi has become the most hated man after Qaddafi among revolutionary class in Libya.
Of course with all the jazz taking place in Egypt this news is seemed to be irreverent.
The Libyan chief of Staff Major General Youssef Mangoush has visited Cairo from few hours ago and met with head of SCAF Field Marshal Tantawy and discussed how the Egyptian army can help the new Libyan army especially with the new challenges the new Libyan army. This is the first visit from its kind when it comes to military officers with high ranks in Libya post revolution.
The Libyan army is facing a very important challenge I think the Egyptian army or any other army will help them to solve it peacefully : The armed militias. Armed militias from former Freedom fighters and tribal fighters as well Qaddafi fighters are roaming the country and are refusing to enroll in the Libyan army.
You got either two solutions : To fight them which means a civil war or To make them understand the meaning of one nation and having a professional army. Unfortunately I do not how Libyans can achieve the second option without a strong democratic leadership that can bring together all tribes.
What is happening in Libya will be used in the worst way to scare people from change in the Arab world including Egypt and Syria. Those who are against the revolution in Egypt and claim that there are plans to divide the country in to 3 or 4 parts got now a golden opportunity that will fit in to their scenario.
I do not need to speak about Syria and El Assad regime.
I found today tweeps attacking the minister of foreign affairs Mohamed Amr’s statement claiming that Egypt has no right to interfere in the Libyan affairs !!!! Oh yes they did !! Of course these will later blame and curse SCAF and Mohamed Amr if Libya becomes 4 pieces Libya by the end of the year.
I will not even waste my time or your time writing about the concept of the national security and what it means. I would like to remind those tweeps that when Southern Sudan chose independence from Sudan , they cursed Mubarak and said it was his fault !!!!!!!
I was one of the tweeps today saying that it is an internal affair of Libya and that Egypt has no judicial right to interfere in the decision making. I stand to that as a studied law person, because that is the international law that must be respected by all calmly and without emotions. It is foremost entirely for the Libyan people to decide on federation or not. Egypt will have to live with the outcome, given it arose from truly democratic processes where all were heard. Egypt as other states has no say in the internal decision making of an independent country. Like in return Egypt would not want Libya to get involved in Egyptian affairs!
ReplyDeleteNo doubt however that Egypt has strong and understandable reasons for wanting a secure and stable Libya on it's western border. Of course Egypt does not want a civil war to break out there or a neighbour that cannot be trusted. I understand all that, but it does not alter the fact that regarding international law only Libya can make it's decisions on this and the statement of Foreign Minister Amr - Egypt would not accept that - is intolerable by international standards. What is he going to do, if they go ahead anyway - wage war? Surely not. Then he should remain silent on this and wait for the developments to take place.
Very good compilation of the many protests against federation within Libya in this post. Thank you. That is very informative and good to know to be able to assess better the sentiments expressed in Libya itself.
If only more Egyptians thought like you...
DeleteParticularly those in executive positions who should be familiar with Public International Law!
Dear Jonamorem we do not live in a perfect world , please tell that to the world powers whether the States or EU or Russia before you tell us to stop caring for our national security when it comes to our neighbors
DeleteDear Zol I hope you tell the US , Israel , West and Russia this before you also blame us on all your problems.
That's an unjust emotional reply, Zeinobia. You know perfectly well - and I explicitely said that in my comment above - that I do not tell you to stop caring for Egypt's national security when it comes to your neighbours. I said, I do understand the security interests of Egypt that are perfectly understandable. But nevertheless, international law is international law and must be respected by all sides. Again: How would you react if Libya decided to interfere in Egypt in this manner? You would be outraged and would say, they have no right to do that! Exactly. But then it must also be valid the other way round, even if that is perhaps not in your interest. That the world is not "perfect", does not alter that fact. Egypt doesn't want Libya to interfere in its domestic affairs - and vice versa Egypt has to restrain itself just as much. Such is the way between independent states. And that Russia or others violate international law surely is no excuse for Egypt to do the same? That has never been your opinion, why now?
DeleteHow are we going to break the international law if we use that legendary soft policy of Egypt once had and Mubarak destroyed ?
DeleteWe will not call the Libyans to kill each other for God sake nor we are going to send our troops to be killed on a foreign soil
Tunisia already has commented on the federalization of Libya and they are taking our side. It is not longer a domestic issue when we are speaking about a country that would split in to two pieces.
It is not a domestic issue when most Libyans refuse the federalization and feel
Blame you for which problems exactly...?
DeleteWhich legendary soft policy did Egypt had that Mubarak destroyed?
The one which supported the first military takeover of power in Sudan and went through with the poisoned, inequitable 1959 Agreement and the inundation of Sudanese land and the thriving historic city of Halfa and the displacement of over 50,000 Sudanese...???
You are professing ignorance by rejecting the rights of people to federalism.
Sudan is also Libya's neighbour and even our disgusting government hasn't commented - Tunisia is so tiny it is impossible for it to appreciate federalism.
The allegation you throw around about 'blaming Egypt for Sudan's problems' and 'telling others to do the same' is such an unsubstantiated and superficial way of dealing with issues.
I agree wholeheartedly with jonamorem
Their legendary soft policy is rhetoric, rhetoric and more rhetoric...
DeleteThe stuff of soap operas - gifting the great Kwame Nkrumah a Coptic Egyptian wife to win black Africa's allegiance.......
You criticise everything that Mubarak has done apart from his illegal, unilateral occupation of Halayeb and the crisis he created that remains even after he is no longer in power...
Plus que ça change plus que c'est la meme chose
Wow it has been a long time since you show up , well let me shock you guys and tell you that some revolutionary powers believe that Mubarak and his army gave part of our land to Sudan ;)
DeleteHalayeb is Egyptian Sudanese Mahdist
Halayeb is as Egyptian as the Golan Heights is Israeli.
DeleteIsrael actually agreed to international arbitration over Taba with Egypt whereas Egypt refuses the same reasonable dispute settlement avenue with Sudan...
Which land did Mubarak give to Sudan?
Or is this another unsubstantiated sensationalist claim...?
Your selectivity in 'choosing' human rights issues, covering Syrian and Palestinian detainees and ignoring Halayeb's civil society activists who are 'Sudanese' or else they wouldn't have been incarcerated and tortured (some to death) in Egyptian prisons, is nauseating.
So which 'revolutionary' powers think that Mubarak gave land to Sudan (and which land is that..).
My friend who said plus que ca change plus que c'est la meme chose was so right...
Keep winking, and our good neighbour Ethiopia and all the other upstream riparians are continuing to develop and we, for once, are seeing benefits.
Keep living in a fantasy land where Egypt wields 'legendary' soft power and keep winking see if this takes you anywhere.
So which revolutionary powers and which land are you talking about?
She must be referring to this type of 'revolutionary' : )
DeleteFrom Amr Adib to Tawfiq Akasha
http://youtu.be/mTCnnwC9hvs
And this is exactly the type of attitude professed by her foreign minister when he makes an inappropriate comment on the sovereign affairs of Libya.
The Libyans will do what they want and the whole world seems to be 'doing things' whilst some just continue to be mired in a fantastic time warp.
Zeinobia , you are going nowhere with this discussion , it only shows the feelings of a large number of sudaneese brothers towards Egypt. Though , I have a lot of sudaneese friends - till now in contact - who studied in Cairo with me , now when i see them after 20 years of graduation in Dubai they talk the same and spread the same thougths .. I love them and shared a lot with them but wonder what did we do wrong to them for this amount of hate ( Not personally towards myself) but towrads Egypt . How can they make this difference , they lived in my house and went together to our summer residence and still call my mother on various occasions ..... But ... when it comes to Egypt it is different!!!!
DeleteI don't want to sound silly , but , remember this match Egypt-Algeria in Sudan , the majority of sudaneese there were supporting Algeria .... ( They have the right to support even the devil , it's their right ) but again it is was strange when you leave a neighbour with whom you have some family ties in his south part and lasting economic and cultural ties to another ( By the way Algeria and Algerians deserve their respect - they are not part of this discussion).
One last word for your sudaneese friends Zeinobia and mine of course , quoted from one of sudaneese politicians after declaration of South Sudan " We now know how Egyptians really felt after Sudan indepedence " .
As for Halayeb issue , i will refer our sudaneese friends to the current border disputes between North and South Sudan. By the way , Egypt did not refuse the international arbitration ,officials are always saying that because Halayed has significant number of people than Taba , there is a better way by addressing the people themselves and letting them choose ... why the sudaneese officials are afraid of letting democracy prevail and people choose !!!
Which Egyptian official stated that they would hold a referendum on the status of Halayeb and which Sudanese official or opposition politician refused..???
DeleteEgypt never proposed anything on the disputed sovereignty of Halayeb, it only makes clumsy statements like the recent one dismissing 'Libyan' federalism, by saying that Halayeb (its illegal military occupation) is a fait accompli...
The enlightened Sudanese resent some, and thankfully not all (as attested by the stances of the Umma Party and the Ansar) of their forefathers' naiveté towards Egypt and the mistreatment they got in return...
The Sudanese fought in Egypt's wars against Israel, supported the wrecker of Nubia Abdelnasser during his darkest hour, watched their land get flooded and their peoples displaced...only for Egypt to benefit, not granting Sudan one watt of power from the Godforsaken dam...
On the other hand Brazil imports electricity from landlocked Paraguay and pays for it...
And your statements and generalisations about the Sudanese prove that you do not know much.
Which Sudanese politician likened South Sudan's secession with Sudan's independence from the Egypt that had occupied it???
The government and opposition were all united in their 'respect' for the wishes of the Southern Sudanese 'people' - respecting people...something many of you seem incapable of.
The fact that you mention that many Sudanese supported Algeria betrays a highly skewed mentality - why shouldn't they support Algeria???
Sudan does not owe Egypt anything, whilst Egypt owes Sudan transboundary 'benefit' instead of 'transboundary harm' that it got from the Aswan Dam and Egypt also owes Sudan a withdrawal of its forces from illegally militarily occupied Halayeb.
In any case time separates us - Ethiopia is thriving and constructing dams that we will benefit from and unlike Egypt and Sudan, Sudan and Ethiopia's power grids were recently interconnected - the whole East Africa region is growing.
Revel in your false reminiscences and rude sense of entitlement towards all things Sudanese and watch the world pass you by.
Dear Sudaneese Mahdist ,
DeleteI am really happy to hear that you are interconnected now with Ethiopia and sharing your resources together and pray that the clashes errupting here & there end to enable you to profit from the fruitfull relation with your good neighbour Ethiopia .. Let's also pray and ask for mercy for the poor sudaneese soldiers who died for several decades of war for South Sudan independance and hope that Ethiopia had nothing to do with it ... You really respect a good neighbour with its hands full of your own people blood but when it comes to another who did not give you a single watt , Oh yes , you needed electricity in the sixties for shopping malls and factories boosting your sudaneese economy at that time !! Egypt gave you what you needed at that time : Education missions , University , Irrigation projects , Health assistance , all paid from the taxes of the same people who deported their own nubian population ( Can you be sincere and tell me what did you do for your own nubian tribes - who were not deported - and live in North Sudan).
Halayeb referendum was a subject to negotiation with your Vice-president Osman Taha ( hope i got the name right ) , and Sudaneese refused ....
My friend , I didn't want to sound like few Egyptians winding day & night about what they did to Sudan and Arabs and what are we getting in return but unfortunatly it is true.
One question for you brother , do you know how many soldiers did Sudan send in 1967 & 1973 wars ? what was their level of arming ? How many died and were exactly did they fight on the front ??
Regards,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
As for Egypt, on the other hand, comparing it with Ethiopia by using 'your' parameters:
DeleteThe singular mission of the glorious Mahdist revolution in which all our families have martyrs was the emancipation of the Sudanese from Egypt,
'Sudan for the Sudanese' in the words of the late, great Imam AbdelRahman Al-Mahdi.
We needed electricity in the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties because we suffered from power outages, demand for the industrial and manufacturing sectors, as well as in urban centres outstripped supply and because this is 'the normal' course of events - Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay share the electricity of the Itaipu dam since its inception...
I bet that you probably also think that Ethiopia does not need and should not produce hydropower and that Egypt has an entitlement to some of it.
The Sudanese had their own indigenous centres of learning and Gordon Memorial College / today's University of Khartoum is the oldest university in Sudan...
Egypt's offered education as a means of co-opting the Sudanese and you know what?
It failed because the Southern Sudanese who studied in Egypt all look out for the benefit of their own people first, not for Egypt's benefit.
And the irrigation projects that between Sudan and Egypt all failed...
In order to educate yourself a bit through an analysis based on objective, empirical analyses of the result of Egypt-Sudan relations, I suggest you read the following article by Professor Ali Abdalla Ali:
The Egyptian role in Sudan’s development and underdevelopment 1899-2010
http://www.sudantribune.com/The-Egyptian-role-in-Sudan-s,35500
As for what we did to the deported Nubians, they should not have been displaced in the first place, and but for AbdelNasser's support of the first military takeover of power in Sudan, the 1959 Agreement would not have been signed on those terms.
The top negotiator Eng. Mirghani Hamza was negotiating tough and after the coup he was replaced by a military officer.
The displacement was one of the factors that led to Sudan's (and the Arabic speaking world's) first revolution against Alfariq Ibrahim Abboud.
I know that Sudan offered its land as a base for the Egyptian airforce as it was further away from the frontline and that our sorry President served on the front.
I also know that not one Sudanese should have participated in Egypt's wars bearing in mind what Egypt did in the 1959 Agreement and what it did in its invasion and military occupation of Halayeb.
We don't owe Egypt anything.
If you want to get anywhere in the world, get real and start thinking like 'real' leading nations and not in the backward, sorry terms of ألمن
Egypt owes Sudan a withdrawal from Halayeb and compensation to the displaced Nubians.
You are so rude and condescending, not to me personally, but to my people and my country.
DeleteEthiopia never invaded Sudan like Egypt did under Muhammad Ali Pasha - how many of our forefathers died fighting for their freedom against the invading Egyptian forces?
I suggest you go and read some history that is not written by Ethiopians.
Ethiopia and its Emperor the valiant lion of Africa Haile Selassie mediated the Addis Ababa Peace Agreement 1972-1983 which was the longest period in our history of peace and which witnessed the forging of a national sense of identity.
And it's no secret that Egypt embraced and tried to co-opt the Sudan Peoples' Liberation Movement / Army with Dr Garang being given the red carpet treatment in Cairo...
Our brothers the Southerners are smarter than us by not trusting official Egypt, based on an empirical analysis of the benefit / harm in its relations with the Sudanese by...'paying lip service' to Egypt's water paranoia officially...and on the ground, joining the 'consensual, popular view' that views the Nile's waters as property of all along with its benefit...
And this is the position of the Umma Party, Sudan's biggest opposition movement for your information...
Please do some reading before embarrassing yourself in cyberspace...
FYI a referendum on Halayeb was never proposed by the Egyptian side and refused by the Sudanese side.
DeleteMP: Sudan offers three Options for Solving Halayeb Case
http://www.smc.sd/eng//news-details.html?rsnpid=34439
Dear Sudanese Mahdist,
DeleteI was trying to keep this discussion as objective as possible but looks that i failed , you’re talking about offending "your people" and "your country" , hope that my mother don't get to this debate because she is from Aswan and half of her cousins are married to Sudanese men & women .. Anyway, trying to go somewhere with this discussion i will try to focus with you on the following points :
1- what started all this is your refusal for Egypt's opinion over Libya : Sudan interfered in Chad guerilla war in the eighties as Hussein Habri troops started their assembly and training in El-guenina village in Sudan. Sudanese secret service interfered in the fight of Eriteria independence from Ethiopia. Libya - Egypt , the chief of staff came to Egypt and stayed for 3 days meeting with all the officials and LIBYANS were the ones who seeked our help.
2- You got this Electricity point totally wrong , I meant to say that at this time with our limited resources from Egyptian taxes payers , we were engaged in education , health , irrigation projects.
Though , you say that they all fail , without referring to any articles speaking about the imperial & colonialist role of Egypt in Sudan , would you tell me : How many Sudanese were educated abroad during the last 40 years ? How many among them were educated in Egypt? How many were educated in Egyptian funded institutions inside Sudan? The total number of Sudanese living abroad? How many of them are living in Egypt? During the time of your civil war with your South Sudaneese "Brothers" , which country hosted the most of the southern refugeese though we don't share borders with them? And please i am really looking for the numbers of Sudanese soldiers on our front and martyrs of course and level of arming in "OUR" wars with Israel?? (Please send a CC of the answers to Professor Ali Abdallah Ali).
3- With all my respect to your Mahdi heritage , but Mohamed Ali at the beginning acted the same way as you did with your "South Sudanese" brother , sorry if this offend you , but Sudan at that time was a part of Egypt. Now it is different as it is for South Sudan, with my prayers that our sons in twenty years wont be debating over Darfur republic, Nubian republic.
4- I am 100% sure about this referendum on Halayeb and it was in 2007, let's be objective again and ask you: Do you have anything against it???
5- A very important point, Sudan - Ethiopia good relations are better for Egypt interests in the Nile basin but which Sudan (North or South)??? Unfortunately, these narrow ideas of some of my fellow Sudanese brothers like your professor Ali for the past decades led to this non-ending divisions and haltered spread all over this area and thousands who lost their lives and homes. Everyone is warning you brother that with this pace and retarded politicians you will end with small states in less than 20 years not just North & South Sudan ... If your party like this FINE but i am sorry to inform you that because it is not in our interests , Egypt should interfere. By the way, it goes like this all over the world France is fighting for her interests in Africa, Britain in was Indian peninsula, Russia in east Europe ....
I really want you to be objective & before sending me some answers and non-ending talk please look out numbers that I asked for in my “Second point “and then reply ….
Most of the Egyptians have deep respect for Sudan & Sudanese people and hope that we get to the same level from your side …
Yours Sincerely,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
Dear Sudanese Mahdist ,
DeleteAfter reading Dr Ali's article , and your comment on Mohamed Ali's military escapade , why are you all neglecting the positive sides .. please go to : (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur ) ... and add to your knowledge that 30% of what was known as The Republic of Sudan ( Independant since 1956 )was incorporated with the help of the Egyptian-British military interference in 1916 ..
My deepest regards ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
1 - Foreign Ministers making statements about the internal political, constitutional affairs and choices of a sovereign State is maladroit, absurd and insulting.
DeleteI don't see how any of your examples logically or coherently demonstrate anything that is relevant to what 'Egypt's foreign Minister' unfortunately stated about Federalism in Libya.
For a view that is identical to mine and not iterated by a Sudanese person, scroll up and see Jonamorem's comments.
2 - Are you aware of the number of Sudanese expatriates?
7-9 million.
Are you aware of their geographical distribution or age structure diagram?
There are more Sudanese in Saudi Arabia and the United States than there are in Egypt.
In Sudan's elections, the numbers of Sudanese in individual GCC States dwarfed the number of Sudanese in Egypt.
The number and influence of Sudanese doctors in the UK and Ireland is incomparable to those in Egypt.
In successive cabinets, the percentage of Ministers who studied in Egypt is in a minority.
Current and former Ministers have ties to Canada and the United Kingdom and the United States and Australia (in South Sudan).
Throughout the 70's and 80's hundreds of Sudanese were sent to study in Central and Eastern Europe and the United Kingdom and the United States.
Much as it kills you to admit it, Egypt is not Sudan's portal to the world at large so this idea that Egypt 'graced' the Sudanese and taught them how to read and write is nothing but a myth.
We have been doing our own thing for a long, long time now...
The region that hosted the largest numbers of 'Southern Sudanese' who were fleeing from the civil war is actually...Northern Sudan.
I know Sudanese refugees stick out in Egypt like a sore thumb but cumulatively there were more and are more Sudanese refugees (from the former united Sudan) in Chad, the Central African Republic, the DRC, Kenya, Uganda and Ethiopia.
The only countries that host less Sudanese refugees than Egypt are...Eritrea and Egypt's peace-partner and recipient of Egyptian gas - Israel.
You miss my point.
Sudan participated in Egypt's war with Israel.
Sudan should not have participated even with one soldier in light of what Egypt had done to Sudan in the 1959 Agreement and what Egypt did successively by occupying Halayeb.
You are free to contact Professor Abdalla yourself.
3 - Sudan is not a pet dog hose ownership can be transferred freely.
Al-Imam Al-Mahdi was one of us and fought for us and was the best of us.
Have you ever asked yourself how Sudan was a part of Egypt?
Or are you not taught critical thinking in Egypt?
Egypt was in Sudan through illegal conquest, military aggression and alien domination and occupation.
That the Sudanese united against that and fought it and sacrificed their lives for that cause should be indicative enough for to any 'intelligent' person that Egypt was not meant to be there, just as it is not meant to be in Halayeb, just as the Israelis are not meant to be in the Golan, just as the British were not meant to be in India...
5 - Ethiopia is the most important country for the Republic of Sudan and the Republic of South Sudan because it shares the longest land border with both countries as well as transboundary rivers and most importantly many ethnic and cultural links...
We love Ethiopia and the Ethiopians, they don't patronise us, have never invaded or used us, transboundary benefits are blooming between both countries and we will see and feel the benefits of their dams.
Dear Sudanese Mahdist ,
DeleteYou didn't get me numbers , we would waist everyones time reading this for nothing. Engineers speak with numbers, and numbers speak of themsleves .. I know the estimated figures of what i asked you about and Egypt is not one of the rich gulf states looking for foreign labours due to the lack of its human resources , when we harbour people here we do it because we care for them ,love them and have a lot to share with them ... We are not an immigrating newly formed country or even looking for brains to acquire from all over the world for our scientific glamour ,, we tought others here because we simply wanted to HELP who we thougt shared a same fate.
I want you to look to Sudan map in 1956 and know that this area independant from devilish Egypt was kept as one because of the Egyptian army fighting your revolution and keeping up by annexing Darfur in 1916 and other parts as well. We gave you after our 1952 revolution the choice and in 1956 you got what you fought for ,, but now the sacrifices of my grandfathers to keep a united Sudan are lost.If you study the geography, culture , social , religious differences of the country which was formed in 1956 (and you are dividing now) , you would have known that it would only have been kept united till that time with military power that you stay now winding about.
You don't like the talk from our foreign minister and i told you about a bloody guerilla war in Chad that you orchestraded!!!
It looks that you was somewhere else when some of your fellow sudanese were fighting each other and the Ethiopian army was moving here in there on Sudan soil during the time of South Sudan war.. Ethiopian artillary was engaging for years in heavy bombing for border sudanese towns but of course they are not patronising you like egyptians with their bloody occupation and massacres commited in Halayib.!!! Why are you avoiding to tell us if you are against Halayib referendum ?
I know how some of El-Ummah party and Mahdist feel towards Egypt , nevertheless, Egytpians don't share these negative feelings with you.
Last , I didn't refer to lots of studies done on Sudanese/Egytpian relations because I didn't want to sound biased ... I only wanted to get numbers and readers make their own mind , but , one of the best studies that would ease you and some of your party members was done in the eighties " The negative effect of the mahdi revolt on the egyptian/sudanese relation till present". I advise you to read it,you are reading one sided opinion since your was born and it is about time to read another opinion maybe it would help you reaching a better perspective. It is our fault, being incapable of addressing sudanese for decades and leaving them with a single track minded opinion about our common history...
Finally, I wish you the best and pray for another united Sudan with good relations with all its neighbors with Ethiopia & Ethiopians on the top :)
Deepest regards for you Zeinobia for allowing this to go on for this time ,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
You love African refugees that's why you massacred them at Mustafa Mahmoud and why you shoot them at the border with Israel...
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pearhEb6tM
You said:
"It is our fault, being incapable of addressing sudanese for decades and leaving them with a single track minded opinion about our common history..."
We will never, ever accept what happened in 1820 to be anything but an illegal, military aggression and conquest leading to alien occupation and domination that our grandfathers sacrificed their lives for.
The problem is with you not us, you are incapable of accepting differences in opinions and otherwise.
May God have mercy on our former Prime Minister and Foreign Minister, the pillar of the Umma Party Muhammad Ahmad Al-Mahjoub, who was also a great poet whose poetry was recognised all over the Arabic speaking world but not in Egypt of course.
In one of his poems he was referring precisely to the obstinacy of certain Egyptian views that do not accept the distinctness of all things Sudanese and he said (English translation)
'If the two necks (Sudanese and Egyptian) were slit on the same altar stone their bloods would flow in opposite directions'
As for a referendum in Halayeb, yes, once the territory is under a UN mandate that will examine count the numbers of people from Halayeb who were forced to leave by the Egyptian occupation and allow them to vote as indigenous peoples of the territory.
We all know that Egypt is in Halayeb for the manganese...that's so narrow minded, tell your grandchildren in 30 years time that manganese was more precious than water.
How dare he mention Egyptian tax payers money!
DeleteWhat about the taxes that were levied on the downtrodden between 1820 and the Mahdist liberation?
What about the gold that was plundered and the Nubans who were forcibly conscripted into Muhammad Ali's 'jihadiya' battalion?
Official Egypt has made grave strategic blunders in the way it has gone about in its relations with the Sudanese people, the Nile Basin and Africa.
Egypt has set its course northwards, exporting gas to Jordan and Israel and moving on the ground to connect its power grid with Saudi Arabia and to its West and of course to its matron the EU but not to Sudan those land was flooded and peoples displaced for Egypt's dam!
The High Dam is the worst example of transboundary harm coupled with 'no' transboundary benefit in the world's history.
The saddest thing is of all is the recycled, re-hashed Egyptian apologist, narrow-minded views generation after generation, pre or post-revolution.
The thing is, the rest of the world is moving forward in leaps and bounds.
Dear Sudanese Mahdist,
DeleteI want you to study not only your recent history but the history of the land that you are living on for the past 3000 years ( yes 3000 thousand years!!! ) ; Whenever there was a strong army in the north( that you dislike ) no matter under whose flag it is fighting there is a united Sudan & a protected border Sudan!!! Doesn't this ring a bell for you and make everyone wonder why did you get to 2 states and 2 others are under formation now ....
Some living in north & south still believe that Sudan borders should reach the mideteranean while Egypt to the tributaries of the Nile.The old flag had 3 EQUAL stars presenting: Egypt - Sudan - Nubia , they were all EQUAL .. Egyptians didn't think in 1952 that their first president mother ( Mohamed Naguib ) being sudanese a weird thing. It is normal to see in parts of Cairo sudanese people no one wonders or asks them why they are here , they seek work like egyptians and no one asks them if they have a work or residence permit. And that incident in Mostafa Mahmoud square was not the only mass killing crime commited by Mubarak's regime towards civilians.
As for Mohamed Ali : I don't need to defend him , didn't anyone tell you that he was not Egytpian , anyway , he brought Egyptians also to Jihadya and imposed a lot of taxes on all his sovereign state to achieve the dream that he had for this strategic part of the world...All this lead to form one of the strongest armies at that time which they had to destroy by foreign & local conspirators.
You still don't get it ,do you?? When the world is talking about its biggest powers "USA" , "EU" and till a decade "USSR" ... Doesn't the letter "U" move anything inside you?? .. Our foreign minister knows the importance of this letter (This explains his maladroit statement for Libya )and our failed diplomacy in Africa was and still working for a united Sudan.
As I told you previously , with this pace in few years السودان هتبقى أوضة و صالة
Your and your friend are talking about "...the recycled, re-hashed Egyptian apologist, narrow-minded views generation after generation, pre or post-revolution....." and your friend professor Ali in the study that you referred to was stating the same thing , though , I want you to address FACTS.
Great nations remember positve aspects for leaders who united them and tend to forget negative ones , Bessmark for Germany - Victor Emanuel for Italy ( There was NEVER an Italy before 1861 & you are happy dividing your Sudan ) - Washington for the states ..
But yes , El-ummah party leaders are wiser than this .. They want to share the dam damn built in Ethiopia with the help of non other than Ethiopia's friends from Israel.. This is why you probably kept repeating fighting "YOUR" wars ...
Hope that we would have reached a better ending for tis debate , though , I still whish you the best and hope that your ideas and tendencies towards your neighbors are right .. It looks that we are very far from reaching Mohamed Ali's dream....
It is also my fault from the begining not asking you about your field of studies to know on which grounds we will be debating.
Regards to all ,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
You contradict yourself incessantly.
DeleteFirst you wash your hands of Muhammad Ali and say he was not Egyptian, then you state:
'It looks that we are very far from reaching Mohamed Ali's dream....'
Any dream that it based on military occupation, colonialism, alien domination and illegal conquest is 'doomed to fail'.
Bringing up the ill fated old Egyptian flag 'means nothing' to the Sudanese, do you not understand that...????
We were under occupation and nothing from that era means anything to us, let alone the symbolism of a flag!
Muhammad Ali had no right to invade Sudan in 1820 and the glorious Mahdist Revolution set history back on its proper course.
It is Egyptians who talk with 'sense of entitlement' to Sudan, to the Nile, to things owned by 'people', which is a fact they seem to forget.
Go to Juba and ask people who they trust and feel more affinity to: Addis or Cairo, or Nairobi or Cairo...
You are right to bring up the experience of Europe, and I would add North East Asia.
France and Germany fought bitter wars, as did China and Japan.
However none of them are 'taught' that their wars of conquest were right or that they have a sense of entitlement in any of the other countries.
This contrasts strongly with you and your narrow-mindedness and false pride that prevents you from admitting that 'what the rulers of Egypt did was *wrong*'.
I bet you are going to come up with a glaring mistake committed by Sudan to defend Egypt, in my book, two rights 'never' make a wrong.
Egyptians need to 'stop' talking about Sudan as if they are entitled to anything it owns.
And your information about the stronger army in the North is factually incorrect, the black Nubian 25th dynasty ruled all of Lower Egypt and beyond to Jerusalem from Jabal Al-Barkal in the Northern State of Sudan.
The point you make about a strong army in the North is also irrelevant - what did Egypt's army and its officers give Sudan, but for a rotten deal with the 1959 Agreement that caused flooding and displacement and harm to Sudan and the Sudanese and benefit to Egypt?
Yes Egyptians like yourself think you have a stake in Juba and Jinja, go and negotiate that with the Southern Sudanese and the Ugandans but no serious, intelligent Sudanese thinks that our borders reach the Mediterranean - our maritime border is on the Red Sea coast from illegally militarily occupied Halayeb to the Eritrean border.
You speak about Naguib as if the Egyptian people elected him, and you obviously haven't heard what Heikal said about Naguib's Sudanese ties.
For your information Egypt's authorities have not implemented the ill-fated 4 Freedoms (of movement, residence, employment and purchase of property) for Sudanese males aged between 18-50, even though Egyptians are granted those rights in Sudan, so get your facts straight.
DeleteAnd when the Sudanese regime changes one of the first things that will be done is the revocation of the ill-fated 4 Freedoms as they do not benefit the Sudanese.
You are the one who is not addressing facts:
The fact that Egypt's High Dam harmed Sudan and did not benefit it,
The fact that Egypt's involvement in Sudan from 1820-1955 (with the exception of the period of national liberation under the Mahdiyya) was based on falsehood and occupation,
The fact that civilised nations do not talk about other States with a sense of 'entitlement' towards them,
The fact that throughout the many years of Sudanese-Egyptian relations since independence in 1956 Egyptian has always benefitted 'at the expense of the Sudanese'...
And you are in no place to talk in disparaging terms about your peace partner Israel to whom you are indebted for economic and military aid (via the US), the QIZ and the high level of US investment in your economy.
Ethiopia's relations with Israel aren't as strong or 'strategic' as Egypt's and Israel has nothing do to with Ethiopia's dams, which we fully support.
Sudan's relations with Ethiopia = win-win and there is plenty of evidence to support this.
Sudan's relations with Egypt benefit Egypt at the expense of Sudan and there is plenty of evidence to support this and the problem is that with mentalities like yours it looks like nothing will change.
Three stars?
DeleteReally....?
Three stars that are supposed to represent the many Kingdoms of the peoples of the Sudan that were subjugated by Muhammad Ali and his Egyptian foot soldiers?
And how many stars are there on the US or EU flags?
How many spokes are there in the wheel that sits in the heart of the flag of the 'FEDERAL Republic of India'?
This proves how little you know about Sudan and reflects your singular, 'centralised' mentality.
No wonder your foreign Minister made that ridiculous statement.
(Part 1)
DeleteDear Sudanese Mahdist,
I am still going through this debate knowing that it is impossible to change minds who were fed hatred for their entire lives , hope that this help young Sudanese & Egyptian to read more their history from different perspective . So , let's spare readers this vocabulary resentment contest and speak of numbers not harsh feelings and bedtime stories that you've been told before sleeping. I will speak about points with facts , starting with your references and if you like to add another point I will try to answer :
1- you send me this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pearhEb6tM) and in the clip they say that almost 4 Millions Sudanese live in Egypt and YOU said that the maximum number of Expatriate Sudanese is 9 Millions .. Can you spear 45% of your precious time to explain to your fellow party member why do colonialist Egyptians let Sudanese live among them??! (is this conform with the idea of 4 freedoms being prevented from Sudanese in Egypt!)
2- You referred to this article(http://www.sudantribune.com/The-Egyptian-role-in-Sudan-s,35500), with all the respect to professor Ali , I went through the study many times and want everyone to read it and underline the FACTS in it and disregard all his feelings and personal interpretations. The only facts is that Egypt ( not Britain ) paid for Sudan infrastructure from the year 1890 till 1956 . His ideas about Britain forcing Egypt and the cost of Suez canal are personal interpretations , probably because of this feeling of bitterness he claimed that Sudan paid back the funding’s to Egypt ( If you have proof please provide us ).
3- The map of Sudan in 1956 , according to Wikipedia , Darfur was incorporated due to Egyptian-Anglo interference. Moreover, before 1820 the South Sudan was shredded into small tribes. Who is accountable for this area of land being united under a single entity?
4- Ethiopian dams- irrigation projects & Israel , the Ethiopian admitted , the Israelis didn’t deny , go to CIA factbook on Ethiopia and they say this …. And YOU state otherwise!!! Why while I am talking always about Egypt/Sudan you answer is Ethiopia !!!!! Who fed you this rotten idea that good relations between Sudan/Ethiopia would offend or endanger Egyptian interests !!!!
5- Transboundary benefit : For more than 30 years an estimated 60% of drug smuggling , 70% of arms smuggling ( specially during the dark terrorist era in the Eighties for Egypt) , 100% of the human trafficking to Israel were coming from the Sudanese border!!!! A question should pop-up in any Egyptian mind are all this behind Sudanese officials back or is a sort of vicious political game ?? I didn’t discuss Sudan harboring extreme Islamist groups which were accountable for a lot of innocent life casualties for several years.
6- Still referring to comparing the Egyptian interference in Libya internal policies to Sudanese interference in Chad , and leaving readers , determining which is “maladroit”!!! I should reiterate for the hundred times that it was the Libyan chief of staff who came to Egypt , so it was the Libyans who asked for our help .
7- Halayib & Manganese!!! ( Do you have any proof document ) or is this following the same Sudanese Secret Service method that they did in the eighties when they claimed that Gaddafi was after Uranium in Chad. The war started and ended and Uranium vanished as Manganese will vanish after Halayib referendum. By the way , following your theory I guess that Nasser send the army in 1958 to Halayib in the conquest of Manganese.:)
( To be continued)
(Part Two )
Delete8- How many Sudanese died in the Mahdi revolt ? How many died in South Sudan Civil war from 1956 till NOW? How many Sudanese died in Darfur?? Sudanese hands are full of their fellow brothers blood more than Egyptians !!!
9- For the past 50 years - after Sudan independence - more than 200 Sudanese officer cadets arrive to receive their 4 years training in the Egyptian military academies. Strange isn’t it , when YOU are talking about military conquest and alien invasion both armies are trained in the same both!! (Please refer & link with point 1 ). The occupation is only in your sick mind , the relevant word , could be “Hot point” , “Point of conflict” , “Border dispute”… Some will claim that it is colonialist conspiracies for permanent unrest in their ex-colonies, others will say that these disputes are even present between countries ( which were not part of this game) in Europe , you are free to adopt any of these theories.
10- I urged you to study the history of Sudan for the past 3000 years , you will notice that stability in Sudan was always accompanied with strong army in the north , you popped the 25th dynasty ruling which was Nubian ( started ruling Egypt round 1000 BC ), don’t you have calculators where you are?!!!. I was precise about 3000 years not generalizing as you keep claiming.
11- I am not contradicting myself when I talk about Mohamed Ali, though he was not Egyptian I admire his dreams , what’s wrong with this?!!. Is that strange for you to understand that we talk highly about Egyptian army successes under Kotoz & Saladin which were not Egyptians, we don’t have any inferiority feelings towards that.
12- It is written everywhere that the Mahdi revolt was against the Ottoman Empire , and it is also written everywhere that Egyptian Sudanese borders were drawn by the British not Egyptians , and it also known the non-Muslim South Sudan independence war was funded by the US and adopted by your neighbors in Ethiopia, Darfur unrest starting from the eighties El-Geneina conquests with Zaghawas and Hussein Habry into Chad till 2005 Idris Debby border conflicts and though with the genocide crimes of the population was prominent work of the Sudanese government , WHY ON EARTH DOES EGYPT COME IN THE MIDDLE?!!!! Professor Ali’s article claimed that it was always Egypt who apprehended the development of Sudan!!! Don’t you see that all the above mentioned issues could not just stop the progress of any country but going more to destroy it. The easy thing of course is blame it on Egypt and its conspiracy against the Mahdi revolt and exploiting Sudanese resources in Halayib!!!
I again urge everyone to look for the book “ The negative effect of the Mahdi Revolt on the Egyptian Sudanese Relations”
You have 12 points , you should refer with facts to any or add new ones to allow us to benefit from your knowledge,
I know that “Point 1” interpretation is hard but I am telling you again : We do it with people with whom we share same fate , interests, history …. Remember the letter “U” ; And, kindly start your answer if you have any by telling us the borders of the Sudan that you believe in ..
Wish you all the best ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
(Part-1)
DeleteDear Sudanese Mahdist,
I am still going through this debate knowing that it is impossible to change minds who were fed hatred for their entire lives , hope that this help young Sudanese&Egyptian to read more their common history from different perspective . So , let's spare readers this resentment vocabulary contest and speak of numbers not harsh feelings and bedtime stories. I will speak about points with facts , starting with your references and if you like to add another point I will try to answer :
1- you send me this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pearhEb6tM) and in the clip they say that almost 4 Millions Sudanese live in Egypt and YOU said that the maximum number of Expatriate Sudanese is 9 Millions .. Can you spear 45% of your precious time to explain to your fellow party member why do colonialist Egyptians let Sudanese live among them??! (is this conform with the idea of the 4 freedoms being prevented from Sudanese in Egypt!)
2- You referred to this article(http://www.sudantribune.com/The-Egyptian-role-in-Sudan-s,35500), with all the respect to professor Ali , I went through the study many times and want everyone to read it and underline the FACTS in it and disregard all his feelings and personal interpretations. The only facts in that article are that Egypt ( not Britain ) paid for Sudan infrastructure from the year 1890 till 1956 . His ideas about Britain forcing Egypt and the cost of Suez canal are personal interpretations , probably because of this feeling of bitterness he claimed that Sudan paid back the fundings to Egypt !!( If you have proof please provide us ).
3- The map of Sudan in 1956 : according to Wikipedia , Darfur was incorporated due to Egyptian-Anglo interference. Moreover, before 1820 the South Sudan was shredded into small tribes. Who is accountable for this area of land being united under a single entity?
4- Ethiopian dams- irrigation projects &Israel : the Ethiopian admitted , the Israelis didn’t deny , go to CIA factbook on Ethiopia and they say this …. And YOU state otherwise!!! Why while I am talking always about Egypt/Sudan your answer is Ethiopia !!!!! Who fed you this rotten idea that good relations between Sudan/Ethiopia would offend or endanger Egyptian interests !!!!
5- Transboundary benefit : For more than 30 years an estimated 60% of drug smuggling , 70% of arms smuggling ( specially during the dark terrorist era in the Eighties for Egypt) , 100% of the human trafficking to Israel were coming from the Sudanese border!!!! A question should pop-up in any Egyptian mind are all this behind Sudanese officials back or is a sort of vicious political game ?? I didn’t discuss Sudan harboring extreme Islamist groups which were accountable for a lot of innocent life casualties for several years.
6- Still referring to comparing the Egyptian interference in Libya internal policies to Sudanese interference in Chad , and leaving readers , determining which is “maladroit”!!! I should reiterate for the hundred times that it was the Libyan chief of staff who came to Egypt , so it was the Libyans who asked for our help .
7- Halayib& Manganese!!! ( Do you have any proof document ) or is this following the same Sudanese Secret Service method that they did in the eighties when they claimed that Gaddafi was after Uranium in Chad. The war started and ended and Uranium vanished as Manganese will vanish after Halayib referendum. By the way , following your theory I guess that Nasser send the army in 1958 to Halayib in the conquest of Manganese.:)
(To be continued)
( Part two )
Delete8- How many Sudanese died in the Mahdi revolt ? How many died in South Sudan Civil war from 1956 till NOW? How many Sudanese died in Darfur?? Sudanese hands are full of their fellow brothers blood more than Egyptians !!!
9- For the past 50 years - after Sudan independence - more than 200 Sudanese officer cadets arrive every year to receive their 4 years training in the Egyptian military academies. Strange isn’t it!! , when YOU are talking about military conquest and alien invasion both armies are trained in the same both!! (Please refer & link with point 1 ). The occupation is only in your sick mind , the relevant word , could be “Hot point” , “Point of conflict” , “Border dispute”… Some will claim that it is colonialist conspiracies for permanent unrest in their ex-colonies, others will say that these disputes are even present between countries ( which were not part of this game) in Europe , you are free to adopt any of these theories.
10- I urged you to study the history of Sudan for the past 3000 years , you will notice that stability in Sudan was always accompanied with strong army in the north , you popped the 25thdynasty ruling which was Nubian ( started ruling Egypt round 1000 BC ), don’t you have calculators where you are?!!!. I was precise about 3000 years not generalizing as you keep claiming.
11- I am not contradicting myself when I talk about Mohamed Ali, though he was not Egyptian I admire his dreams ,What’s wrong with this?!!. Is that strange for you to understand that we talk highly about Egyptian army successes under Kotoz& Saladin which were not Egyptians, we don’t have any inferiority feelings towards that.
12- It is written everywhere that the Mahdi revolt was against the Ottoman Empire , and it is also written everywhere that Egyptian Sudanese borders were drawn by the British not Egyptians , and it also known the non-Muslim South Sudan independence war was funded by the US and adopted by your neighbors in Ethiopia, Darfur unrest starting from the eighties El-Geneina conquests with Zaghawas and Hussein Habryinto Chad till 2005 Idris Debby border conflicts and though with the genocide crimes of the population was prominent work of the Sudanese government , WHY ON EARTH DOES EGYPT COME IN THE MIDDLE?!!!! Professor Ali’s article claimed that it was always Egypt who apprehended the development of Sudan!!! Don’t you see that all the above mentioned issues could not just stop the progress of any country but going more to destroy it. The easy thing of course is blame it on Egypt and its conspiracy against the Mahdi revolt and exploiting Sudanese resources in Halayib!!!
I again urge everyone to look for the book “ The negative effect of the Mahdi Revolt on the Egyptian Sudanese Relations”
You have 12 points , you should refer with facts to any or add new ones to allow us to benefit from your knowledge,
I know that “Point 1” interpretation is hard but I am telling you again : We do it with people with whom we share same fate , interests, history …. Remember the letter “U” ;
And, kindly start your answer if you have any by telling us the borders of the Sudan that you believe in ..
Wish you all the best ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
4 million is an the exaggerated maximum estimation...
DeleteI'm sure you know all about exaggeration, fabrication and lies after the Omdurman football fiasco where Egypt's media pillars insulted all the Sudanese.
I already mentioned that the numbers of Sudanese who were eligible for voting in the last elections in Egypt were a fraction of those in Saudi Arabia and other GCC States...
If the video shows anything it shows the horrible conditions and treatment that Sudanese refugees got in Egypt and that Egypt was merely a 'transit' country for them to developed nations where people have rights...
That Egyptian forces shoot them to kill when they attempt to cross the international boundary into your strategic partner and neighbour and recipient of gas Israel is telling...
You quite simply cannot shake off your feeling of من , as if we owe you anything or you went out of your way to give us anything.
You gave us a transboundary dam with severe harm and no benefits and the occupation of Halayeb after 40 years of relations as independent States.
We don't owe you diddly squat and when the Spring returns to Sudan sooner or later, there will be a new set of parameters for you to deal with.
That you criticise 'everything' that Mubarak did apart from his decision to unilaterally, illegally, militarily occupy and annex Halayeb is telling and disgusting.
The 4 Freedoms do not benefit the Sudanese and do not make sense and will be the first thing to go when the government changes.
I'm glad that our incompetent government which has made disgusting concessions to Egypt, although not over Halayeb as our people would revolt, I'm glad that they agreed to implement the 4 Freedoms with our Southern Sudanese brothers.
2 - What infrastructure did Egypt pay for?
Was it infrastructure or in reality the administrative costs / salaries of the colonialists..?
Kitchener built the railroad to surround the Mahdist State. There is nothing today to point to and say, that was made or paid for by the occupying Egyptian State, the Brits on the other hand set up our finest educational institution: Gordon Memorial College / the University of Khartoum.
3 - Yes Darfur as a Sultanate was incorporated into the rest of Sudan by force and much later.
What do you know about the history of Darfur and its civil society and their views on this?
What do you know about the role of Darfuris in the Mahdiyya (they were its backbone) and the way al-Imam al-Mahdi incorporated them into his State 'without' annexation or occupation....???
4 - Why do I mention Ethiopia when you talk about Egypt and Sudan?
DeleteBecause the difference in positive-sum outcomes of engagement could not be more clear between Sudan and Ethiopia and the opposite is true when it comes to Sudan's relations with Egypt and the High Dam is the most glaring, enduring example of this.
How exactly is Egypt's strategic peace partner and gas importer Israel involved in Ethiopia's dams and at what level?
Project finance?
Contractors?
Service companies...?
They aren't involved.
Egypt opposes Ethiopia’s dam construction plan
http://bikyamasr.com/32223/egypt-opposes-ethiopias-dam-construction-plan/
5- You are obviously not familiar with hydro-project / international environmental law lexicon.
Transboundary dams all over the harm cause harm and benefit.
Egypt's dam is the only dam in history that caused harm with no benefit.
The dam should have produced benefits for Sudan, just like the Itaipu Dam which gives benefits to the three States that it effects.
As for the other negative things crossing over into the Egyptian border, you forgot to mention diseases and AIDS and diseased livestock and weapons smuggled all the way up to Gaza.
More reason to rescind the 4 Freedoms with Egypt and engage with States where we can see and feel positive-sum outcomes.
6 - The Libyans asked for your opinion on Federalism or their system of governance? ; )
7 - Could Halayeb's Manganese Wealth Trigger A Sudan-Egypt Conflict?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/magda-abufadil/could-halayebs-manganese_b_635023.html
Pulling back from Halayeb was the only reasonable thing AbdelNasser did and he only did that after a sharp rebuking from his only ally in Sudan Ali Al-Mirghani who stated that an interference would not be accepted by the Sudanese and would poison relations and how right he was.
Al-Mirghani's son, another anomalous Sudanese friend of Egypt, referred to the situation in Halayeb as being problematic and dissatisfactory.
We will never, ever let this issue go.
We demand the same type of treatment that Egypt gave Israel over Taba, international arbitration.
( Part 2 )
Delete8- How many Sudanese died in the Mahdi revolt ? How many died in South Sudan Civil war from 1956 till NOW? How many Sudanese died in Darfur?? Sudanese hands are full of their fellow brothers blood more than Egyptians !!!
9- For the past 50 years - after Sudan independence - more than 200 Sudanese officer cadets arrive every year to receive their 4 years training in the Egyptian military academies. Strange isn’t it!! , when YOU are talking about military conquest and alien invasion both armies are trained in the same both!! (Please refer & link with point 1 ). The occupation is only in your sick mind , the relevant word , could be “Hot point” , “Point of conflict” , “Border dispute”… Some will claim that it is colonialist conspiracies for permanent unrest in their ex-colonies, others will say that these disputes are even present between countries ( which were not part of this game) in Europe , you are free to adopt any of these theories.
10- I urged you to study the history of Sudan for the past 3000 years , you will notice that stability in Sudan was always accompanied with strong army in the north , you popped the 25thdynasty ruling which was Nubian ( started ruling Egypt round 1000 BC ), don’t you have calculators where you are?!!!. I was precise about 3000 years not generalizing as you keep claiming.
11- I am not contradicting myself when I talk about Mohamed Ali, though he was not Egyptian I admire his dreams ,What’s wrong with this?!!. Is that strange for you to understand that we talk highly about Egyptian army successes under Kotoz& Saladin which were not Egyptians, we don’t have any inferiority feelings towards that.
12- It is written everywhere that the Mahdi revolt was against the Ottoman Empire , and it is also written everywhere that Egyptian Sudanese borders were drawn by the British not Egyptians , and it also known the non-Muslim South Sudan independence war was funded by the US and adopted by your neighbors in Ethiopia, Darfur unrest starting from the eighties El-Geneina conquests with Zaghawas and Hussein Habryinto Chad till 2005 Idris Debby border conflicts and though with the genocide crimes of the population was prominent work of the Sudanese government , WHY ON EARTH DOES EGYPT COME IN THE MIDDLE?!!!! Professor Ali’s article claimed that it was always Egypt who apprehended the development of Sudan!!! Don’t you see that all the above mentioned issues could not just stop the progress of any country but going more to destroy it. The easy thing of course is blame it on Egypt and its conspiracy against the Mahdi revolt and exploiting Sudanese resources in Halayib!!!
I again urge everyone to look for the book “ The negative effect of the Mahdi Revolt on the Egyptian Sudanese Relations”
You have 12 points , you should refer with facts to any or add new ones to allow us to benefit from your knowledge,
I know that “Point 1” interpretation is hard but I am telling you again : We do it with people with whom we share same fate , interests, history …. Remember the letter “U” ;
And, kindly start your answer if you have any by telling us the borders of the Sudan that you believe in ..
Still wish you all the best ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
(Part 2)
Delete8- How many Sudanese died in the Mahdi revolt ? How many died in South Sudan Civil war from 1956 till NOW? How many Sudanese died in Darfur?? Sudanese hands are full of their fellow brothers blood more than Egyptians !!!
9- For the past 50 years - after Sudan independence - more than 200 Sudanese officer cadets arrive every year to receive their 4 years training in the Egyptian military academies. Strange isn’t it!! , when YOU are talking about military conquest and alien invasion both armies are trained in the same both!! (Please refer & link with point 1 ). The occupation is only in your sick mind , the relevant word , could be “Hot point” , “Point of conflict” , “Border dispute”… Some will claim that it is colonialist conspiracies for permanent unrest in their ex-colonies, others will say that these disputes are even present between countries ( which were not part of this game) in Europe , you are free to adopt any of these theories.
10- I urged you to study the history of Sudan for the past 3000 years , you will notice that stability in Sudan was always accompanied with strong army in the north , you popped the 25thdynasty ruling which was Nubian ( started ruling Egypt round 1000 BC ), don’t you have calculators where you are?!!!. I was precise about 3000 years not generalizing as you keep claiming.
11- I am not contradicting myself when I talk about Mohamed Ali, though he was not Egyptian I admire his dreams ,What’s wrong with this?!!. Is that strange for you to understand that we talk highly about Egyptian army successes under Kotoz& Saladin which were not Egyptians, we don’t have any inferiority feelings towards that.
12- It is written everywhere that the Mahdi revolt was against the Ottoman Empire , and it is also written everywhere that Egyptian Sudanese borders were drawn by the British not Egyptians , and it also known the non-Muslim South Sudan independence war was funded by the US and adopted by your neighbors in Ethiopia, Darfur unrest starting from the eighties El-Geneina conquests with Zaghawas and Hussein Habryinto Chad till 2005 Idris Debby border conflicts and though with the genocide crimes of the population was prominent work of the Sudanese government , WHY ON EARTH DOES EGYPT COME IN THE MIDDLE?!!!! Professor Ali’s article claimed that it was always Egypt who apprehended the development of Sudan!!! Don’t you see that all the above mentioned issues could not just stop the progress of any country but going more to destroy it. The easy thing of course is blame it on Egypt and its conspiracy against the Mahdi revolt and exploiting Sudanese resources in Halayib!!!
I again urge everyone to look for the book “ The negative effect of the Mahdi Revolt on the Egyptian Sudanese Relations”
You have 12 points , you should refer with facts to any or add new ones to allow us to benefit from your knowledge,
I know that “Point 1” interpretation is hard but I am telling you again : We do it with people with whom we share same fate , interests, history …. Remember the letter “U” ;
And, kindly start your answer if you have any by telling us the borders of the Sudan that you believe in ..
Still Wish you all the best ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
( Part 2 )
Delete8- How many Sudanese died in the Mahdi revolt ? How many died in South Sudan Civil war from 1956 till NOW? How many Sudanese died in Darfur?? Sudanese hands are full of their fellow brothers blood more than Egyptians !!!
9- For the past 50 years - after Sudan independence - more than 200 Sudanese officer cadets arrive every year to receive their 4 years training in the Egyptian military academies. Strange isn’t it!! , when YOU are talking about military conquest and alien invasion both armies are trained in the same both!! (Please refer & link with point 1 ). The occupation is only in your sick mind , the relevant word , could be “Hot point” , “Point of conflict” , “Border dispute”… Some will claim that it is colonialist conspiracies for permanent unrest in their ex-colonies, others will say that these disputes are even present between countries ( which were not part of this game) in Europe , you are free to adopt any of these theories.
10- I urged you to study the history of Sudan for the past 3000 years , you will notice that stability in Sudan was always accompanied with strong army in the north , you popped the 25thdynasty ruling which was Nubian ( started ruling Egypt round 1000 BC ), don’t you have calculators where you are?!!!. I was precise about 3000 years not generalizing as you keep claiming.
11- I am not contradicting myself when I talk about Mohamed Ali, though he was not Egyptian I admire his dreams ,What’s wrong with this?!!. Is that strange for you to understand that we talk highly about Egyptian army successes under Kotoz& Saladin which were not Egyptians, we don’t have any inferiority feelings towards that.
12- It is written everywhere that the Mahdi revolt was against the Ottoman Empire , and it is also written everywhere that Egyptian Sudanese borders were drawn by the British not Egyptians , and it also known the non-Muslim South Sudan independence war was funded by the US and adopted by your neighbors in Ethiopia, Darfur unrest starting from the eighties El-Geneina conquests with Zaghawas and Hussein Habryinto Chad till 2005 Idris Debby border conflicts and though with the genocide crimes of the population was prominent work of the Sudanese government , WHY ON EARTH DOES EGYPT COME IN THE MIDDLE?!!!! Professor Ali’s article claimed that it was always Egypt who apprehended the development of Sudan!!! Don’t you see that all the above mentioned issues could not just stop the progress of any country but going more to destroy it. The easy thing of course is blame it on Egypt and its conspiracy against the Mahdi revolt and exploiting Sudanese resources in Halayib!!!
I again urge everyone to look for the book “ The negative effect of the Mahdi Revolt on the Egyptian Sudanese Relations”
You have 12 points , you should refer with facts to any or add new ones to allow us to benefit from your knowledge,
I know that “Point 1” interpretation is hard but I am telling you again : We do it with people with whom we share same fate , interests, history …. Remember the letter “U” ;
And, kindly start your answer if you have any by telling us the borders of the Sudan that you believe in ..
Still Wish you all the best ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
( Part 2 )
Delete8- How many Sudanese died in the Mahdi revolt ? How many died in South Sudan Civil war from 1956 till NOW? How many Sudanese died in Darfur?? Sudanese hands are full of their fellow brothers blood more than Egyptians !!!
9- For the past 50 years - after Sudan independence - more than 200 Sudanese officer cadets arrive every year to receive their 4 years training in the Egyptian military academies. Strange isn’t it!! , when YOU are talking about military conquest and alien invasion both armies are trained in the same both!! (Please refer & link with point 1 ). The occupation is only in your sick mind , the relevant word , could be “Hot point” , “Point of conflict” , “Border dispute”… Some will claim that it is colonialist conspiracies for permanent unrest in their ex-colonies, others will say that these disputes are even present between countries ( which were not part of this game) in Europe , you are free to adopt any of these theories.
10- I urged you to study the history of Sudan for the past 3000 years , you will notice that stability in Sudan was always accompanied with strong army in the north , you popped the 25thdynasty ruling which was Nubian ( started ruling Egypt round 1000 BC ), don’t you have calculators where you are?!!!. I was precise about 3000 years not generalizing as you keep claiming.
11- I am not contradicting myself when I talk about Mohamed Ali, though he was not Egyptian I admire his dreams ,What’s wrong with this?!!. Is that strange for you to understand that we talk highly about Egyptian army successes under Kotoz& Saladin which were not Egyptians, we don’t have any inferiority feelings towards that.
12- It is written everywhere that the Mahdi revolt was against the Ottoman Empire , and it is also written everywhere that Egyptian Sudanese borders were drawn by the British not Egyptians , and it also known the non-Muslim South Sudan independence war was funded by the US and adopted by your neighbors in Ethiopia, Darfur unrest starting from the eighties El-Geneina conquests with Zaghawas and Hussein Habryinto Chad till 2005 Idris Debby border conflicts and though with the genocide crimes of the population was prominent work of the Sudanese government , WHY ON EARTH DOES EGYPT COME IN THE MIDDLE?!!!! Professor Ali’s article claimed that it was always Egypt who apprehended the development of Sudan!!! Don’t you see that all the above mentioned issues could not just stop the progress of any country but going more to destroy it. The easy thing of course is blame it on Egypt and its conspiracy against the Mahdi revolt and exploiting Sudanese resources in Halayib!!!
I again urge everyone to look for the book “ The negative effect of the Mahdi Revolt on the Egyptian Sudanese Relations”
You have 12 points , you should refer with facts to any or add new ones to allow us to benefit from your knowledge,
I know that “Point 1” interpretation is hard but I am telling you again : We do it with people with whom we share same fate , interests, history …. Remember the letter “U” ;
And, kindly start your answer if you have any by telling us the borders of the Sudan that you believe in ..
Wish you all the best ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
( Part 2 )
Delete8- How many Sudanese died in the Mahdi revolt ? How many died in South Sudan Civil war from 1956 till NOW? How many Sudanese died in Darfur?? Sudanese hands are full of their fellow brothers blood more than Egyptians !!!
9- For the past 50 years - after Sudan independence - more than 200 Sudanese officer cadets arrive every year to receive their 4 years training in the Egyptian military academies. Strange isn’t it!! , when YOU are talking about military conquest and alien invasion both armies are trained in the same both!! (Please refer & link with point 1 ). The occupation is only in your sick mind , the relevant word , could be “Hot point” , “Point of conflict” , “Border dispute”… Some will claim that it is colonialist conspiracies for permanent unrest in their ex-colonies, others will say that these disputes are even present between countries ( which were not part of this game) in Europe , you are free to adopt any of these theories.
10- I urged you to study the history of Sudan for the past 3000 years , you will notice that stability in Sudan was always accompanied with strong army in the north , you popped the 25thdynasty ruling which was Nubian ( started ruling Egypt round 1000 BC ), don’t you have calculators where you are?!!!. I was precise about 3000 years not generalizing as you keep claiming.
11- I am not contradicting myself when I talk about Mohamed Ali, though he was not Egyptian I admire his dreams ,What’s wrong with this?!!. Is that strange for you to understand that we talk highly about Egyptian army successes under Kotoz& Saladin which were not Egyptians, we don’t have any inferiority feelings towards that.
12- It is written everywhere that the Mahdi revolt was against the Ottoman Empire , and it is also written everywhere that Egyptian Sudanese borders were drawn by the British not Egyptians , and it also known the non-Muslim South Sudan independence war was funded by the US and adopted by your neighbors in Ethiopia, Darfur unrest starting from the eighties El-Geneina conquests with Zaghawas and Hussein Habryinto Chad till 2005 Idris Debby border conflicts and though with the genocide crimes of the population was prominent work of the Sudanese government , WHY ON EARTH DOES EGYPT COME IN THE MIDDLE?!!!! Professor Ali’s article claimed that it was always Egypt who apprehended the development of Sudan!!! Don’t you see that all the above mentioned issues could not just stop the progress of any country but going more to destroy it. The easy thing of course is blame it on Egypt and its conspiracy against the Mahdi revolt and exploiting Sudanese resources in Halayib!!!
I again urge everyone to look for the book “ The negative effect of the Mahdi Revolt on the Egyptian Sudanese Relations”
You have 12 points , you should refer with facts to any or add new ones to allow us to benefit from your knowledge,
I know that “Point 1” interpretation is hard but I am telling you again : We do it with people with whom we share same fate , interests, history …. Remember the letter “U” ;
And, kindly start your answer if you have any by telling us the borders of the Sudan that you believe in ..
Wish you all the best ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
Recap for your answers ,
DeletePlease focus on facts with references :
1-Estimated number of Sudanese in Egypt :
Ref : UNHCR (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,IRBC,,EGY,,3df4bed114,0.html)
Center for Migration and Refugee Studies (http://www.egypt.iom.int/doc/iom%20study%20assisted%20voluntary%20return%20among%20sudanese%20in%20cairo.pdf)
2-Egyptians funding infra-structure in sudan :
Ref : Mukkawi Mustafa (Sudanese) book :” Modern Establishment of the Sudanese Economy-The Establishment phase and the Role of Egyptian loans and Grants”
3-Sudan map 1956 vs. Sudan Map 1910 vs. Sudan map prior to Mohamed Ali era
Ref : Wikipedia
4-You denied Israel presence in Ethiopia !! Egyptian/Israeli relations are irrelevant subject to this discussion .. Though , all the Egyptians know the wrong steps taken by Mubarak ousted regime towards Israel ( hope that this makes you feel better)
5-Transboundary Effect : You didn’t discuss any of the facts that I mentioned, needless , the role of Sudanese authorities in this.
6-Sudan/Chad , Egypt/Libya : my CLEAR question which is more “maladroit”?? Moreover, you say that it is not “Libyans” who asked for our help but “ who governs Libya”. According to international organizations the transient governing power in Libya is represented by “ Mostafa Abdel Guelil” and his army Chief of Staff came to Cairo 11 days ago and stayed in OFFICIAL visit for 3 days requesting Egyptian officials to interfere.
7-Manganese & Halayib : You are right minerals could exist or EVEN exist in Halayib. But the question is what made the British after they set the boundaries by 22 parallel in 1899, to reset Halayib triangle in 1902 to be under Sudanese administration and later on give territorial sovereignty to Egypt…???? Various explanations could be given , one of which could be the controversial identity of the people living there and non-specific historical boundaries for this area. ( i.e: Can you draw me the border map of the biggest gulf country now – Saudi Arabia- 100 years ago ??)
Regards,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
The past 5000 years of Sudanese history saw a schism whereby two loci emerged, one in Nubia in Sudan and the other in Lower Egypt.
DeleteLower Egypt interacted and cross-pollinated greatly with its Mediterranean Basin whilst Nubia's rulers focused on self-preservation.
The question is not how many Sudanese died fighting the Egyptians during the Mahdiyya, hundreds of thousands by the way, the issue is why did they have to fight an invading force on their land in the first place?
Did or did Muhammad Ali not invade Sudan in 1820 and initiate the Egyptian occupation of Sudan?
The Maydiyya was against Muhammad Ali, his dynasty, his occupation and all it brought, it was aimed at Cairo not Istanbul...
He clearly did and the Sudanese perspective is that he had no place being there, he subjugated the people, levied heavy taxes, suppressed customary civil society and pillaged the country for oil, gold and negroid soldiers.
And this logically led to the glorious Mahdist Revolution which put history back on its proper course, until 1899 when the British carriage came into Sudan on the backs of Egyptian soldiers.
Until you accept our rejection of the military occupation of our people, whether by Muhammad Ali or in Halayeb, discussions will get 'no where'.
The report states that the number of Sudanese in Egypt is between 2.2 - 4 million.
I have already stated that I reject the 4 million projection as a gross exaggeration.
The report states:
'. This is the estimate usually quoted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Egypt as well. It must be noted that this is not based on any kind of factual counting within the population itself and has therefore to be taken as an estimate rather than as a real figure.'
I do not trust the Egyptian Ministry of Foreign Affairs which threatens Nile Basin States, trivialises Sudan's objections to the illegal, military occupation of Halayeb and dares to 'reject' Federalism in Libya...
The report also states that most of the Sudanese in Egypt are not refugees.
The numbers of Sudanese refugees who fled to Egypt is less than those who fled to Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda as I have previously stated.
Everyone knows that Egypt is not an attractive destination for Sudanese African refugees, it's just a transit point for them to go to countries where they are respected and have rights.
2- Who on Earth is Makkawi Mustafa?
He is not known as one of our prominent economists or economic historians and the title of his book is ridiculous and gives away its intentions...
Professor Ali's article is coherent and widely accepted, as is the theory that Egypt wants 'no' development in Sudan, unless it gets its share, well I'm sorry to tell you that back in the 1940's al-Imam AbdelRahman Al-Mahdi said 'Sudan is for the Sudanese'.
3- Title to territory is not solely based on maps.
We demand the same treatment Israel got over Taba - International arbitration.
4- Mubarak and Israel???? What about Sadat? Israel is your strategic partner and none of your parties have said anything about changing that. You benefit from Israel through the QIZ and the US investment and the military and economic aid, and they benefit from your gas.
So you are in 'no position' to criticise any other State's relations with your strategic partner.
5- Which part of:
DeleteAs for the other negative things crossing over into the Egyptian border, you forgot to mention diseases and AIDS and diseased livestock and weapons smuggled all the way up to Gaza.
More reason to rescind the 4 Freedoms with Egypt and engage with States where we can see and feel positive-sum outcomes.
did you not understand?
6- Did Mustafa AbdelJalil ask for Egypt's opinion on how to internally and constitutionally govern Libya?
No he didn't.
If you have evidence, show us.
With all due respect Egypt is in no position right now to offer any country constitutional advice.
7- It was not just the British, it was also Boutros Ghali the elder and other odious, contemptuous Egyptians like him.
In Sudan we refer to Halayeb as being under occupation.
There is no way to sugar-coat what happened.
It was Mubarak's Egypt that embarked on an 'aggressive, unilateral, military, occupation and forced annexation of Halayeb' thereby creating this acrid problem that will only be resolved through the same treatment you afforded Israel over Taba, international arbitration.
Controversial identity of the people living there! You must know as much about them as Zeinobia knows about the Nubians.
We know them very well, they are our kith and kin.
About Ethiopia and the South, did or did Mubarak's Egypt not give Dr Garang the same red carpet treatment he got in Ethiopia...?????????
And if I had to advise Egyptians, I would tell them to look for a different figure to admire, apart from Muhammad Ali who represents the worst legacy of Nile Basin relations...
Muhammad Ali was about force, which was short-lived and ultimately failed and faits accomplis which, believe me, people 'will not accept'.
We will not accept the injustices of the 1959 Agreement and the High Dam just as the Ethiopians and Kenyans and South Sudanese rightly do not accept the inequitable Nile Basin agreements.
And that book on the Mahdiya and Egyptian relations is obsolete.
It is Egypt that brought bad relations onto itself through figures like Muhammad Ali, Salah Salim and Mustafa Al-Fiqy.
You would be better advised to re-revise your history with a degree of introversion, if you want to get anywhere in the future...
I wonder 20 years down the line whether you will value gas exported to Israel or manganese stolen from illegally occupied Halayeb more than water.
Dear Sudanese Mahdist ,
DeleteToo bad Zeinobia had a problem in the comments for the past couple of days , I am beginning to enjoy this debate as it is essential for younger generations to digest the common history for Egypt & Sudan whether from your perspective or Mine ..
You didn’t specify Sudan map from your perspective !!
Quick Recap :
1- You consider Sudanese living in Egypt only refugees which is not the case. I gave reference from UNHCR , their count is ONLY for Southern refugees , please consider that there might be others living willingly here.
2- Professor Ali analysis based on facts ,his interpretation on why Egypt built Sudanese infrastructure doesn't hold with any proof , if you have any British reference on this please provide.
3- Sudan border prior to 1820 , wasn't the same?? It was Mohamed Ali who incorporated this land together and the Brits inherited it ..
4-Mubarak - Sadat & Israel ?! Why don't we talk : Sudan & Israel , Have you heard the word " Fallasha" before ? Haven't you read anything about the Sudanese role in it ?!! It is strange when everyone is accusing Mubarak ( I personally dislike ) of dealing with Israel and you did more than he did , he sold Gas but your government sold Human beings..
5- Sudanese Nubians deserve to be reimbursed for their losses due to Aswan dam , no one denied that , but did your government as for it ?!!
6- What did Mustafa Abdel Galil ask for , please refer to all the news release after the Libyan chief of staff met with Tantawy !! ( Is it that difficult for you to get newspapers one week ago and you want to discuss more than 200 years of history.
Though , I wanted to keep on talking about Egypt & Sudan but as you keep talking about this “win-win” relation between Sudan & Ethiopia and I kept referring to Israel and you denying ; despite the Fallasha issue … I have another example incident that I remembered : Just in the summer of 1979 ( due to good relations between Sudan & Ethiopia ) , all over the border after several military escapades from the Ethiopian army they were preparing for massive invasion.
Who did the Sudanese go to ?? They came to Cairo , for a quick help , Sadat swiftly responded: 3 special forces units dispatched waiting for interference , 5 commanding officers got to Khartoum , chief of operation for the 3 units went for 2 days tour over the border to catch actual places for soldiers embarquement which were going to be send directly to the borders from Cairo. Our Ethiopian friends as they knew that Egypt WONT leave Sudan alone , moved its troops away from the border. Was this done for Water, manganese , gas , forced by the British or for something else that you keep denying??!!!!
Why did we had to deal with Guarang ??? Look at the transboundary effects that I mentioned and the suspected role of the Sudanese government specially harboring islamist extreme groups and you might get one of the answers.
Halayib : Our officials want referendum , yours want International arbitration. Neither want war . Taba didn’t have population , Halayeb has , so why prevent people from choosing their destiny ?!!
Regards ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
Dear Sudanese Mahdist ,
DeleteToo bad Zeinobia had a problem in the comments for the past couple of days , I am beginning to enjoy this debate as it is essential for younger generations to digest the common history for Egypt & Sudan whether from your perspective or Mine ..
You didn’t specify Sudan map from your perspective !!
Quick Recap :
1- You consider Sudanese living in Egypt only refugees which is not the case. I gave reference from UNHCR , their count is ONLY for Southern refugees , please consider that there might be others living willingly here.
2- Professor Ali analysis based on facts ,his interpretation on why Egypt built Sudanese infrastructure doesn't hold with any proof , if you have any British reference on this please provide.
3- Sudan border prior to 1820 , wasn't the same?? It was Mohamed Ali who incorporated this land together and the Brits inherited it ..
4-Mubarak - Sadat & Israel ?! Why don't we talk : Sudan & Israel , Have you heard the word " Fallasha" before ? Haven't you read anything about the Sudanese role in it ?!! It is strange when everyone is accusing Mubarak ( I personally dislike ) of dealing with Israel and you did more than he did , he sold Gas but your government sold Human beings..
5- Sudanese Nubians deserve to be reimbursed for their losses due to Aswan dam , no one denied that , but did your government as for it ?!!
6- What did Mustafa Abdel Galil ask for , please refer to all the news release after the Libyan chief of staff met with Tantawy !! ( Is it that difficult for you to get newspapers one week ago and you want to discuss more than 200 years of history.
Though , I wanted to keep on talking about Egypt & Sudan but as you keep talking about this “win-win” relation between Sudan & Ethiopia and I kept referring to Israel and you denying ; despite the Fallasha issue … I have another example incident that I remembered : Just in the summer of 1979 ( due to good relations between Sudan & Ethiopia ) , all over the border after several military escapades from the Ethiopian army they were preparing for massive invasion.
Who did the Sudanese go to ?? They came to Cairo , for a quick help , Sadat swiftly responded: 3 special forces units dispatched waiting for interference , 5 commanding officers got to Khartoum , chief of operation for the 3 units went for 2 days tour over the border to catch actual places for soldiers embarquement which were going to be send directly to the borders from Cairo. Our Ethiopian friends as they knew that Egypt WONT leave Sudan alone , moved its troops away from the border. Was this done for Water, manganese , gas , forced by the British or for something else that you keep denying??!!!!
Why did we had to deal with Guarang ??? Look at the transboundary effects that I mentioned and the suspected role of the Sudanese government specially harboring islamist extreme groups and you might get one of the answers.
Halayib : Our officials want referendum , yours want International arbitration. Neither want war . Taba didn’t have population , Halayeb has , so why prevent people from choosing their destiny ?!!
Regards ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
It seems that you like discussion for the sake of discussion.
DeleteYou seem to be incapable of a cognitive discussion.
You have provided no evidence whatsoever of Egypt's offer of a referendum and Sudan's rejection of the offer.
"Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul-Gheit was quick to respond by declaring that Egypt’s southern borders were “well known and well demarcated.” The FM went on to stress the "futility" of reopening the historical dispute."
Which part of:
Title to territory is not solely based on maps.
We demand the same treatment Israel got over Taba - International arbitration.
Our argument in the International Court of Justice will not be primarily based on maps.
You continue to be an apologist for Muhammad Ali and this signals the fact that this discussion can go nowhere.
Muhammad Ali invaded and subjugated the Sudanese people and in the words of al-Imam AbdelRahman Al-Mahdi the British carriage came to my land whilst being pulled by Egyptian foot soldiers...
Muhammad Ali's invasion and everything that emanated from it is illegitimate - as he was.
Egypt with its 3 Presidents since 1952 has been supporting one-dimensional military rule in Sudan since 1958.
Indeed Nasser's support for the first military regime in Sudan was pivotal in thwarting the negotiations with the civilian regime, which were headed by Engineer Mirghani Hamza, and which is well documented in our parliamentary archives.
The coup that Nasser supported was instrumental in the 1959 Agreement and the rotten deal, we have evidence of what we demanded before the coup, and 'no evidence' of transboundary benefit.
The High Dam is the only dam in the world of its size that has caused transboundary harm with zero transboundary benefit - you have been incapable of addressing this point.
Personally I don't see anything wrong with the evacuation of Falasha Mora Ethiopian Jews via a third country to a final destination.
It was an objective specific and time specific endeavour which is incomparable to the strategic, economic partnership that Egypt enjoys with Israel, and you know that this did not start with Mubarak...
Egypt exports gas to Israel and benefits it whilst preventing, in the past, the development of Nile Basin States in Sudan.
Thankfully this situation has changed and Ethiopia is stable and undergoing economic growth and building its dams and the Sudanese people are seeing the fruits of this real win-win partnership.
Try to think of an original way of addressing the points, you implied that the Libyans came to Egypt for Constitutional advice, as opposed to security advice, provide the evidence. Your claim is of course ludicrous.
Anyone who asks the SCAF for Constitutional advice needs their head checked.
Ethiopia never planned to invade Sudan and for your information Sudan will never allow Egypt to attack Ethiopia through its land or air space.
DeleteEthiopia's valiant lion Emperor Haile Selassie brokered the first and longest peace in Sudans history in Addis Abeba in 1972.
The dergue Marxist regime that replaced him was naturally hostile to Khartoum's pro-Western regime at the time.
They found in Dr Garang at the time, who professed Marxist leanings out of political expediency, an ally.
If you want to see a 'real' migrant population / native population success story, look at the large numbers of Ethiopians and Eritreans who fled to Sudan during Ethiopia's civil war...
We never massacred or beat them, nor do we mock them.
Till this day tens of Eritreans risk their lives crossing the Sudanese border.
Ethiopia never planned to invade Sudan and what you described is a storm in a teacup brewed by Sadat for his hydro-paranoia.
Sadat, who proposed sending water from the Nile Basin to Israel via the Peace Canal.
Good luck to him, the Nile in Egypt is nothing but a trickle.
Egypt's ties with Garang predate the horrible regime that came to Sudan in 1989...
Egypt has always been fighting democratic regimes in Sudan and established relations with Garang since 1986 when al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi was elected Prime Minister of Sudan.
And by the way the Ansar will never forget Egypt's involvement, at the level of Sadat and Mubarak, in the aerial attack on Aba Island in 1970 that led to the martyrdom of al-Imam Al-Hadi Al-Mahdi.
Your apologism for Muhammad Ali,
Your inability to address the fact that the High Dam caused harm and not benefit,
Your inability to admit Egypt's 'failed' policy in the Nile Basin and its causes,
over a number of posts tell me that this discussion is becoming tautological.
You are quite simply incapable of accepting views that do not correspond with your own.
When the Spring returns to Sudan, we will have another discussion within a whole new set of parameters.
Until then, educate yourself on Sudan and get with the times.
Yes, there's no point wasting time or space with this type of petrified mentality.
DeleteThe guy keeps side-tracking and rebounding accusations.
Talk is cheap, the real stuff takes place on the ground.
Our Sudanese brothers are wise ...
Delete(http://www.almasry-alyoum.com/article2.aspx?ArticleID=332041&IssueID=2445)
Jonglei is Egypt's only lifeline and the Southern Sudanese 'will not' construct the canals for the sole benefit of Egypt.
DeleteThey are wise indeed.
The other solution is for Egypt to decrease its water intensive uses, but Egyptians have always wanted to have their cake and eat it - well this is no longer feasible in light of increasing upstream appetites, and us Sudanese are happy to see the fruits of hydro-cooperation with our neighbour Ethiopia.
Enjoy the ride!
I like rides ;)
DeleteVery simple and educatif : (Copy & Paste the following link)
( http://sarasuliman.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%87-%D9%85%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B6%D9%89-%D9%84%D9%81%D9%87%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%B6%D8%B1-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%BA%D9%8A%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B3/ )
Regards ,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
Ali AbdelLatif?
DeleteReally...?
From the early 1900's...
The man was clearly suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
What do his ideas mean today in Sudan, on the ground...?
Nothing.
Don't forget it was a Unionist led parliament, under a Unionist leader who made the historically correct decision to emancipate Sudan from Egyptian influence.
Just as it was Egypt's only ally who wrote to AbdelNasser and warned and rebuked him when he tried to invade Halayeb back then...and more than half a Century later the man's son, another lone ally of Egypt referred to Halayeb's situation under illegal, Egyptian, military occupation in disparaging terms.
Stay stuck in the past and ourselves and those neighbours of ours who grant us benefits in our transboundary water projects will keep creating the present.
Educate yourself:
http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/محمد_أحمد_المهدي
Due to fact that I know little about Hydro-power , I am just an electrical power generation engineer with a master of business:)) You should know better about ethiopian hydro projects;)
DeleteThe new overhead transmission line between Egypt & Sudan & Ethiopia -under bidding phase now- will be the best benefit for the regional countries:)) After the Egyptian authorities will succeed in raising the sudaneese line to 220 KV and the Ethiopian to 220KV , inshaala we will all benefit from it.
No "real" expert here is worried about the ethiopian projects , the topography of Ethiopia prevent them from having large reservoirs like Nassser lake .. It is the intensive ISRAEILI presence there.
It looks that it is going to be a short " Ride "
Regards,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
After more than 50 years Egypt wants to interconnect its power grid to Sudan in order to 'take' Ethiopian power...?
DeleteAnd you have the nerve to talk about benefit..??
For the millionth time Israel is your peace, economic and strategic partner.
The upstream States are going along with the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement and we support them.
It's about time that we benefited from the Nile Basin at your expense, just as you have been doing since 1959.
As I told you it is going to be a " Short ride " .. We will have to wait and see ...
Delete"It's about time that we benefited from the Nile Basin at your expense" ... !!! You are more than welcome , from the begining of this debate I told you that we believe that Sudan & Egypt are one , so it is not "your" expense it is "OUR" expense.. I am a unionist half of my family are still in Aswan with marital relations with northern Sudanese.
"Israel is your peace, economic and strategic partner" ... Proves that you know a lot about Egypt's foreign policy and Egyptians:))
I don't know your background yet ?!!
Regards ,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
The Sudanese do not believe that Sudan and Egypt are one.
DeleteThe Sudanese resent the militaristic grounds on which Egyptians 'lay claim' to Sudan and abhor Muhammad Ali and his dynasty as much as you love them.
You don't even understand our accent, how could be we one?
You are ignorant of our history and cultures.
You are centralised and we are decentralised.
You are the 'Arab Republic' and we are a 'multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic and multi-cultural' 'Federal' Republic.
Your troops occupy our land in Halayeb since 1995.
You think that you are indispensable to us, to our education and enlightenment in complete ignorance of our history and organic development.
You speak of us and our land with an absolutely unacceptable 'sense of entitlement'.
Sudan is larger than Egypt and there are Sudanese in Gadarif and Blue Nile State who are intermarried with Ethiopians, just are there are Darfuris who are married to Chadians (the daughter of Sheikh Musa Hilal of the Mahamid to President Idris Deby Teny no less).
There are Sudanese in Kassala who have Eritrean family...
If family ties are anything to go by, Egyptian Unionism is not special or unique, on the contrary it is obsolete.
Any intelligent Egyptian would attempt to see things from the Sudanese perspective instead of trying to fabricate a provocative fantasy charade - Egypt is extremely water scarce, suffers from hydro-paranoia and is not still content with benefiting from the Nile at the expense of all the other Basin States.
Sudan was the party that was harmed and that did not benefit from the 1959 Agreement, whilst Egypt prospered.
The 1959 Agreement is Sudan's most prolific hydro-engagement with Egypt and represents an irrefutable condemnation of Egypt and an anomaly amongst THE ENTIRE WORLD'S large transboundary dams due to the benefit it affords one State 'at the expense' of another...
It takes two to tango - we Sudanese do not consider ourselves and you to be one, so stop thinking in terms of soap opera mentalities and get real.
Countries engage each other on the basis of mutual interests.
Sudan's relations with Egypt have not provided benefits to the Sudanese whilst our relations with Ethiopia do.
The ride is a long one, as long as the economic prosperity and awakening of Ethiopia and Sudan and the other Upstream Riparians.
The Sudan-Ethiopia interconnection is complete.
DeleteIt was financed by the World Bank on the Ethiopian side and by local resources on the Sudanese side.
The Egyptian interconnection project to Sudan is in the bidding phase and long may it remain that way.
It's absurd that after more than 50 years, only when there's going to be spare capacity from Ethiopia, that Egypt wants to join.
Sudan whose lands got flooded and people displaced in order for Egypt to build a dam that generated hydro-power, received 'nothing'...
I am sure that both of you are not entitled to speak on the Ethiopians behalf. President Zenawy was here few months ago and in a seminar he appreciated the efforts to connect Ethiopian grid to Egypt.
DeleteI keep telling you that where I come from - Aswan- we have family ties with Sudan.
Sudan/Chad , here is a composition question for you , write a book from the followings ( Hussein Habri - Idris Debby - El-guenina - Darfur - Sudanese Secret Service - Guerilla War - Libya) How dare you talk about good neighboring relations:)) The man gave his daughter to Idris Debby for other reasons.
After the fall of Mubarak regime and inshaala his foreign policies , everything will change. "OUR" neighbors in Ethiopia know this and everyone should know this , you can't fight geography nor deny history and "You" are doing both :))
And to be clear , again and again , the ousted Mubarak was a disaster in his foreign approches but who wasn't ( this is why i keep reminding you of Chad). By the end of the day, PEOPLE historical realtions will prevail...
Still you didn't mention your background ??
Regards ,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
Sudan and Egypt are one is the most ridiculous statement I've heard this year.
DeleteIt's like a Spaniard saying Spain and Portugal are the same, or a Mongolian person saying Korea and Mongolia are the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_-QK9V_jEU
Dr Arsano fails to mention Sudan's first military takeover that allowed for the 1959 Agreement and that was supported by Nasser.
Mubarak occupied Halayeb illegally and by force, creating an intractable problem and Nasser supported a coup which allowed him to inundate Sudanese land, displace Sudanese people and harm Sudan with no benefit.
They are two sides of the same coin.
There are more intermarried tribes between Chad and Darfur and Gadarif and the Blue Nile and Ethiopia than Egypt and Sudan.
How many Chadians and Ethiopians do you know?
My background is I'm a young, educated, professional Sudanese who knows when his country is being taken for a ride and who knows win-win and win-lose situations, who demands a standard of engagement that is standard all over the world and is aware of the experiences of other countries and who sees right through alfahlawa (emotional, dramatic, obfuscation and smoke-screening which some say is prevalent amongst Egyptians).
DeleteI wonder when you say I am Sudanese, which Sudan are you refering to :((
DeleteIt is a nightmare when i feel that I could wake-up one morning and Sinai could be independant ...
As educated professional , you should know that while Britain and other colonialist powers sold this ideas of seperate states and tought you how to talk only in the favour of your tribe or clan , they were fighting and still for their union project. Then they propagated this idea of arab nationalism to disperse islamic orientations for the region.
I am against Nasser , against any occupation or military interferences, even against political Islamist parties ... I am Pro to any effort for regional integration. If this is "Fahlawa" , then I like "Fahlawa" ... Though , I hate stupidity , when you go buy things and rely on others thousands of miles away and leave your closet neighbors , there is no other word to describe than " S T U P I D ".
All the regional governments for the past 50 years messed-up things not just Egypt .. Sudan & Ethiopia did. It is about time to clear the mess and start moving forward otherwise we will be all left in the 20th century and some in the 19th century..
For 2 weeks now , you are trying to convince me that Sudan was and is better without Egypt and that "Sudanese" did this and did that and "Ethiopians" care more .. and ..and ...and .. You should be living far away from Sudan or even not Sudanese at all .. Don't you read newspapers or see the news for the past year.. Didn't you read anything about fights on the BORDERS between NORTH & SOUTH Sudan ???!!! What does Egypt has to do with it ??????????????? Where do Ethiopia stand in this ...
Probably we over-react in Egypt and it is just friendly manifestations with a good support of a good neighbor in the favor of a win-win relation...
Moreover , up north when you ask someone about background he mention his major .. After all ,we are on a different wavelength and speak different languages..
Still my deepest respect & regards ,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
If the 1959 Agreement's utter harm to Sudan and the Sudanese and benefit to Egypt 'at the expense of Sudan and the Sudanese' is anything to go by, and it is one enormous piece of empirical evidence that is anomalous when compared to similar projects everywhere else in the world, if rejecting that type of engagement is stupid then we are stupid.
DeleteIf rejecting engagement that sells gas to Jordan and to Israel at discounted prices whilst not even 'connecting' the power grids (to Sudan) in over half a Century is stupid then we are stupid.
If recognising the speed with which the Ethiopian and Sudanese power grids 'have been connected' and appreciating the fact that very soon WE THE SUDANESE will be BENEFICIARIES of HYDRO-POWER GENERATED IN ETHIOPIA is stupid, then we are stupid.
If rejecting claims made to our land and country, just like any person in any part of the world with an iota's worth of dignity will is stupid, then we are stupid.
Would a British candidate, nay, a British Monarch today refer to themselves as having dominion over India?
DeleteWill you admit that Muhammad Ali's actions in 1820 constituted invasion and colonial occupation?
Will you admit that the 1959 Agreement benefitted Egypt at Sudan's expense and is anomalous amongst the world's major hydro-projects in its asymmetrical developmental effect?
Will you admit that the situation in Halayeb is a major problem and that in these situations conflict resolution is made through international arbitration, JUST LIKE EGYPT DID WITH ISRAEL OVER TABA?
No one is against regional integration but our engagement with Egypt since 1820 to date is not a cause for much trust.
Egypt needs food, jobs and space and Egyptians like you who seem to be many (although not all) speak about Sudan with a sense of entitlement which is absolutely unacceptable.
We do not owe Egypt anything.
We are not Egypt's strategic reserve of food or animal protein.
Egypt set out to chart its own path, for its own benefit i the 1959 Agreement and
we have charted our own path and shall continue to do so.
It's good that you've brought up the issue of regional integration.
Learn lessons from how it's done in the rest of the world, understand what 'win-win' outcomes mean and then maybe we can start to have a discussion.
But any official, rational proposal that includes the words 'historic, perpetual and blood ties' (like those made by Badawi Shehata) should be considered null and void because successful States do not talk about each other in these soppy terms and because the same could be said about Sudan's relations with Ethiopia and Chad.
And finally what do you know of Sudan for you to ask me which Sudan or where in Sudan I'm from.
You would fail a 12 question pop quiz on Sudanese history, geography and culture.
"...My background is I'm a young, educated, professional Sudanese who knows when his country is being taken for a ride and who knows win-win and win-lose situations, who demands a standard of engagement that is standard all over the world and is aware of the experiences of other countries and who sees right..." ... Mahatma Ghandi couldn't have said this about himself :))
DeleteYou are speaking of the devil :)) Egypt is even worse and dealing with the land of angels ;)
DeleteYou said " It takes two to tango " .. You are absolutly right : When did ANY Sudanese government ask for Electrical grids connection? For Gas ? For Reimbursement for the High damn effects ??
Halayeb is in negotiation phase ...
Why do you want me or other Egyptians to feel guilty about Mohamed Ali and ottomans actions or even Nasser decisions !! We are the present and deal with the future.
If we know nothing about Sudan , it's whose fault ??Sudanese failed to represent themselves to the world and the long struggle for South independance tended to a wide negative persepective about Sudan & Sudanese. Still marches are after Sudanese embassies in western world.Your next debate should be with George Cloney:))
In the nineties, I remember talking to Sudanese friends in the states during war time and how they perceived their southern sudanese citizens describing them with really bad ways !!You hate to admit that you are widely devided and that on each corner of Sudan there is a struggle... and what do you do about it ?? Nothing , just blame it on Egypt and probably you think that when you get Halayib peace will prevail ...
I told you , we speak different languages ..
I could be in Sudan next week , happy to meet you ,
Regards ,
khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
You should be fighting this
Delete( http://oiumedicine.montadarabi.com/t345-topic )
Ooh - bogey man, bogey man...
DeleteAmerica!
Conspiracy theory!
Israel...your economic, strategic and military partner...
You obviously don't know anything about Sudan so please spare us and yourself your time.
You would fail a six question pop quiz on Sudan not even a twelve question one.
I can't believe your 'source' in Sudan is from such a rubbish forum.
If you believe that you can stake your entitlement to Sudan via Islamism instead of Egyptian nationalism you are mistaken.
Sudan asked for hydro-power from the dam during Sadat's time and was given false promises.
Sudan officially complained about the lack of benefit of the 1959 Agreement during the last civilian, democratic government of al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi and its complaints fell on deaf Egyptian ears.
Sudan's Minister of Energy Dr Al-Jazz formally asked to import gas during the last days of Mubarak's regime (when relations were good) and Egypt's Minister said Egypt did not have enough gas for Sudan...
Egypt has the 21st largest gas reserves, in the world - more than Libya even...
http://www.youm7.com/News.asp?NewsID=619710&
Non-Arabic speaking academics know Sudan more than Egyptians like you.
Non-Arabic speaking archaeologists are the ones who cooperate with us.
Halayeb is not under negotiations, we don't trust Egypt on negotiations:
Negotiations to benefit from the High Dam's hydro-power - led to nothing until Ethiopia started generating its own hydro-power, lesson learnt - Egypt takes and does not give,
Negotiations with the Nile Basin States - led to nothing so the upstream riparians drafted their own agreement which we will join once the Spring returns to us
Negotiations on Halayeb...?
The peoples' choice is clear - international arbitration just like the one Egypt had with Israel over Taba...
Your pride prevents you from stating that Egypt has made mistakes and has wronged the Sudanese.
You are incomparable to us and the ongoing evolution we are undergoing and the discussions and debates and apologies we have afforded each other.
We are different - you are the 'Arab Repbublic' and we are a 'Multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic, multi-cultural and multi-religious, Federal Republic'.
Yes please go to Sudan and go to Dar al-Umma and they will teach you one or two things about Sudan.
I have a very low threshold for ignorant people so I wouldn't want to meet you.
I will try to go to Dar al-Umma trying to understand why do Sudanese brother in laws hold Coup-d’état against each other or maybe I can seek the answer at Hassan Toraby's !!! I have a meeting also with some of my friends in Kurdufan trying to stop the border fights there. Finally , my friends from the Zaghawas in Darfur are complaining that after all they did with Sudanese "Central" government and to Idris Debby during couple of successful escapades into Chad they are turning their back to them, I should go to Juba to discuss Abyei occupied by the North Sudanese army , they should ask for international arbitration:))
DeleteI am sure that – in your eyes- it is FABRICATIONS and I am sure that I will fail the 6 questions on Sudan , Cheers for your victory Sir...
You are right "...We are different - you are the 'Arab Republic' and we are a 'Multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic, multi-cultural and multi-religious, Federal Republic.... " Hope that they don't adopt your federal example in the United States or Germany.:))
Still my deepest regards to all my Sudanese brothers in all the united Sudan. Praying for a better Sudan free from 19th century mentalities people who are careless about dividing Sudan in order to achieve their goals.
I have to go make travel preparations,
Both the USA and German are Federal Republics, as are India and Brazil.
DeleteThe thing that you fail to understand is that your 'sense of entitlement' to Sudan's resources is unacceptable to us and is indeed rooted in the 19th Century.
We will never forget that Nasser selfishly gave our first military administration recognition and support, even covert support to take over power.
We did go to international arbitration over Abyei and it solved the issue of border demarcation but not the question of the rights of nomadic peoples, hence the dispute.
You fool no one but yourself, you're not going to Sudan, are ignorant about Sudan and with an attitude like yours whereby you reject introspection and deflect issues and defend official Egypt, you will remain ignorant.
Dear Africanist ,
DeleteThough this language is totally innacceptable "..you will remain ignorant..." , I should emphasize on the following :
-"..your 'sense of entitlement' to Sudan's resources is unacceptable to us and is indeed rooted in the 19th Century..." , you own your resources ... We don't care what type of government you have and how you use your resources... We just want all SORT OF WAR ACTIONS on the Nile tributaries to STOP.
- "...We will never forget that Nasser selfishly gave our first military administration recognition and support, even covert support to take over power..." , I can take you to his grave and you should take your revenge.. Europeans would have lost all their time talking about millions killed in the second world war instead of getting to where they are ... So , keep loosing your time .. As for us here , we just started a long way to overcome years of military regimes one after another. It is not easy when you are getting towards the 100 millions , with a lot of world powers throwing obstacles in your way, but inshaala we will get there ... Soonner or later... The easiet way to get there is when all your borders are stable Libya ( which started this discussion) , Sudan , Gaza and Israel.. We are selfish ignorants asking too much :))
Still my deepest regards for all my Sudanese brothers ..
You are all waisting my time,
Sorry if you find it unacceptable but it is what it is, you are ignorant about the Sudan, its people and history.
DeleteYou want wars in the Nile Basin to stop?
That's why Nasser supported forces that undermined and fought and eventually defeated Haile Selassie?
That's why you supported Abboud's first military takeover of power in Sudan and the 1959 Agreement?
It's not strange or alien for conflicting visions of history to exist, they exist between China, Japan and South Korea, what is strange and alien is for people like you to refuse to be introspective, to take your defensive stances as a given, and to add insult to injury to stake claims and have a sense of entitlement to another land and peoples regardless and in spite of themselves and their history and uniqueness.
Good luck overcoming years of military regimes, but along with the military regimes another thing needs to go, your stubborn, outdated mentalities, sense of entitlement to Sudan and your ignorance of Sudan and all things Sudanese...
Please do something to save Sudanese Nubians :
Delete( http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58354 )
Do something to save Darfuris from Ethnic cleansing :
( http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58259 )
Sudanese should get back to old tribal rituals :
( http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58321 )
They are after a long plan to divide Sudan ....
Who is they?
DeleteWe are personally engaged in the Nubian cause in Sudan, what are you doing about it in Egypt?
We are personally engaged in the quest for justice in Darfur, what are you doing about the issue of justice for the Nubians in Egypt?
We are a 'multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-cultural and multi-linguistic FEDERAL REPUBLIC' that is evolving, the first man to reverse that was the man who Nasser supported in the first military takeover of power in Sudan, President Abboud.
Needless to say we (us and you) couldn't be more different.
What are you saying about:
Negotiations with the Nile Basin States which led to nothing so the upstream riparians drafted their own agreement which we will join once the Spring returns to us
Negotiations on Halayeb...?
Our peoples' choice is clear - international arbitration just like the one Egypt had with Israel over Taba...
We think that conspiracy theories are for low IQ people.
If this the best you can do with your interference in Darfur and now Nubia , I understand why the International court has to interfere :))
Delete"..FEDERAL REPUBLIC' that is evolving " ... "evolving" wrong , you mean fighting ..
You should go sit with your master and he should tell you about the couple of years that he spent in Victoria college in Alexandria and who convinced him afterwards in Sudan to pursue his studies in Oxford :))
Enjoy the lovely song :
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kul9kS14sVM )
Lovely Nile scenes in Sudan by the way...
No matter what you are trying to prove or say , Egyptians have warm feelings for Sudanese... And by the way we know that the majority of Sudanese share same feelings .. I am trying to find Mr Sadiq al-Mahdi TV interview in Cairo few years ago and what did he say about Egypt , you should go sit with him often :))
Deepest regards to all MY Sudanese brothers even-if they are different ,
Please do something to stop the war between North & South Sudan
Delete( http://smc.sd/news-details.html?rsnpid=27108 )
They are after a long plane to divide Sudan
اندلعت الحرب الأهلية في السودان عام 1955م ولم تتوقف حتى الآن،،لك الله يا شعب وشفاك الله يا وطن..
And yes we are evolving, as is Egypt.
DeleteWhat on earth has Egypt got to show for itself since toppling Mubarak...?
Nothing.
I do sit with him and I know his views very well.
You obviously don't know much about facts and events, about his stances on Nile Basin issues and cooperation with Egypt and about his demands for a new type of engagement.
He is a red line that you should not cross.
That he studied in Oxford was only the fulfilment of his intellectual promise and you should be privileged that he studied in Alexandria, in a land which oversaw the assassination of all of his male relatives apart from his grandfather and some nephews, and that saw the relegation of the valiant soldiers to farmhands, captured as war booty after the British carriage arrived in Sudan, drawn by Egyptian foot soldiers.
Also you don't understand 'anything' - the song was for the 'Saints' who are in Egypt, not for Egypt itself, not for its injustice, chauvinism or the flooding of Halfa or the illegal, unilateral, military occupation of Halfa or the negative-sum relations Sudan has had and continues to have with it.
This is the 21st Century.
Relations between nations are built on objective factors, not on 'warmth'.
We do not buy this garbage.
If you're counting on the stereotype of the 'kind, bumbling, stupid Sudanese' (and black Nubians that you portray in a racist manner in your media) I'm sorry to disappoint you.
When the Spring returns to Sudan we will be looking out for ourselves, and God willing you will live to see it.
Sorry to inform you that we don't have red lines here .. The only thing is respect vis-a-vis people who shows respect..
DeleteKindly read what Mr El-Sadiq El Mahdi said here ( http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/4334/World/Region/Former-Sudanese-PM-AlMahdi-proposes-national-agend.aspx) and focus on his first answer for the question (Was the secession of the south inevitable) .... Do you think that some of his analysis - that I do agree with - could be applied on the relation between North (Egypt) & South (Sudan)???
And , then kindly read the following report (http://reliefweb.int/node/28603) , consider this meeting date , the date of the first confortation between Egyptian & Sudanese border troops on Halayib, the first Guarang visit to Cairo , Mubarak failed assassination attempt. ( If you go from last to first event you might get a realtion & also an answer for your previous question "Why did Guarang had a red carpet treatement in Cairo"). If Cairo was useless and negative sum to Sudan Mr El-mahdi wouldn't have come and will to Egypt ..
You want to talk politics , here you go ... I know as much needed about Sudan , probably it is not enough , I should know the names of the people living there one by one :))
You are right , I said it before in my replies , but it's whose fault if you ( Sudanese) failed to represent yourself to your closet neighbor , who should be your closet ally .. Border problems exist and lasts for decades between lots of countries all over the world.
I don't believe that you sat with THE MAN and know his ideas because he should have told you that in politics it is never black & white , politicians like grey... Maybe because you are young , I told you stay with him more often.
What about todays border fights between South & North armies ? do you have any data on this ?
Still my deepest regards to all MY Sudanese brothers,
Please do something to stop the war
Delete( http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58559 ),
enough wars since 1955 ....
Your basic facts are 'wrong' - the war started 1955, one year before independence, then it stopped for 11 years between 1972-1983!
DeleteIt only resumed after the government stupidly decided to lean more towards countries like Egypt culturally...
The war then resumed and stopped in 2005.
It has not reignited however there is fighting along the border.
We are completely against the war and the criminal government in Khartoum.
When it goes and the Spring returns to Sudan history will take its proper course once more.
Now what has Egypt done since Mubarak was ousted?
If leaning towards Egypt is wrong then why did all opposition leaders came and still come to Egypt ( http://reliefweb.int/node/28603 )..
DeleteYou should read again what Mr El-Mahdi said in his answer for the first question "Was the secession of the south inevitable?"in this interview (http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/4334/World/Region/Former-Sudanese-PM-AlMahdi-proposes-national-agend.aspx) .... Any sincere person could project this answer North & South Sudan are in same situations as Egypt & Sudan were decades ago ....You have problem over Abyeii and we still have mutual problem over Halayib....In the near future, South Sudanese will be accusing you of ethnic cleansing and population displacement and slavery adoption and another long list that your grandchildren will be trying to clarify. What should you do about it ?!!
This is the harvest of colonialism .
One thing for sure , "Spring" effects are regional if it comes north or south all will benefit.
My deepest regards to all MY Sudanese brothers,
If leaning towards Egypt is wrong then why did all opposition leaders came and still come to Egypt ( http://reliefweb.int/node/28603 )..
DeleteYou should read again what Mr El-Mahdi said in his answer for the first question "Was the secession of the south inevitable?"in this interview (http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/4334/World/Region/Former-Sudanese-PM-AlMahdi-proposes-national-agend.aspx) .... Any sincere person could project this answer North & South Sudan are in same situations as Egypt & Sudan were decades ago ....You have problem over Abyeii and we still have mutual problem over Halayib....In the near future, South Sudanese will be accusing you of ethnic cleansing and population displacement and slavery adoption and another long list that your grandchildren will be trying to clarify. What should you do about it ?!!
This is the harvest of colonialism .
One thing for sure , "Spring" effects are regional if it comes north or south all will benefit.
" ..Now what has Egypt done since Mubarak was ousted?
Delete.." .... NOTHING ;)
What does this have to do with Egyptian/North Sudanese realtions ??!!
Usamah Mohd. Wrote :
DeleteTwitter :@simsimt
كل ماأسمع جدودنا زمان وصونا على الوطن على التراب الغالي الماليو تمن بكون في أتعس حالة. مافي أي زول وصانا والتراب تلته راح. #السودان
What have Egypt done since Mubarak was ousted is a reminder that States take time to evolve...
DeleteSudan's leaders go to Egypt because it's an important neighbouring State that has interfered negatively in Sudan's affairs - that's a no-brainer.
Copying Egypt culturally and politico-administratively 'Arabism and Centralism' was one of the gravest mistakes Sudan's politicians made, that much is clear.
And it's glaringly obvious that you have not read Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi's literature on Sudan's history and cultural position as a radiator of cultural exchange, not a recipient like Egyptians like you would like to think.
Read 'Wa yas'aloonak 'an Al-Mahdiyya'.
The Republic of Sudan's border with the Republic of South Sudan is incomparable to the Republic of Sudan's border with Egypt.
The cross-pollination and human mass that live on the Sudan-South Sudan border is far more dynamic than Sudan's border with Egypt, where our major Northern city was flooded for Egypt's benefit.
We took Abyei to international arbitration - can you not read?
The dispute is to whether migratory tribes have the right to vote in the referendum or not. That is completely different from Egypt's repulsive unilateral, illegal, aggressive military occupation of Halayeb and the arrogance of pre and post revolution Egyptian governments in 'refusing' to discuss the question of sovereignty or to go to international arbitration PRECISELY like what Egypt did with Israel over Taba.
That double standard is inexcusable.
The analogy drawn between North and South Sudan and Sudan and Egypt is mistaken because Northern Sudanese like myself do not claim to have a sense of entitlement over the South in the same way that Egyptians like you claim a sense of entitlement to Sudan.
Also the Second runner up in out rigged elections in April 2010 was a full blooded Dinka Southerner and the first runner up was a proponent of the great 'New Sudan' ethos which is the complete opposite of your beloved 'Arabist' project.
You know what?
Accusations of slavery and mistreatment have already been made by the South and you know what else?
Many Sudanese like myself through Civil Society groups like Girifna offered an 'apology' for the mistakes of our forefathers and successive governments.
You know what that means?
That means that we have built bridges with the Southern Sudanese and are always welcome in Juba.
That is the difference between you and us.
You refuse to acknowledge any wrongs made by the Egyptian State against the Sudanese when the biggest example, the High Dam, lights up your homes every night.
You don't even bother to educate yourselves on Sudan and the Sudanese and yet you have the gall to speak about us and our land with a sense of entitlement.
At least we are agreed on one thing, the 'Springs' effects will be beneficial.
They will set the right, objective, democratically guided, interest-based parameters for any dialogue and relations with Egypt.
( http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58661 )
DeleteSee readers comments ...
We need leaders with vision
http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58661
DeleteSudanese Mahdist ,
DeleteForget about my "ignorance" about Sudan & Sudanese , don't you read the comments of your own people up here !!!
Haven't you read the recent news posted here about the peaceful manifestations on the border between North & South ... Didn't you read the link up here about Darfur and the poor Nubian Sudanese... Or probably where "YOU" are , you dont' have arabic TV to watch Aljazeera and know that Arab league will put pressure on Sudan to allow INTERNATIONAL aid for people in Kurdufan to prevent the case of becoming international..
If feeling bad about a neighboring country being divided is a sense of entitelement than let it be ...
You need just to read the comments of the southern Sudanese officials about the last events and if you want you will get to the "Projection theory", Egypt/Sudan is similar in many aspects as North/South Sudan .
Focus on your internal problems , we all have a lot to be done .. Halayib dispute will be solved sooner or later with general consent between both countries , at least , as far as I know there were never deadly clashes between both armies like the ones in Abyeii .. We are in a better status .. Admit this please...
Deepest regards ,
Kudos on finding the main opposition portal that includes the views of the proponents of the 'New Sudan' like myself and proponents of a much more traditional political movement - the Ansar and the Umma Party.
DeleteThings we 'both' agree on are:
our opposition to Egyptian interference in Sudanese affairs,
our opposition of the illegal, unilateral, military Egyptian occupation of Halayeb and our resolute call for international arbitration to solve the problem in the same manner that Egypt went to international arbitration with Israel over Taba,
our opposition to the 1959 Agreement, our support of the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement
and our complete dissatisfaction with the way relations have been handled between the two countries - in favour of Egypt and at the expense of Sudan.
Goint back to the crux of our comments and the post, the comments by Egypt's Foreign Minister and Zeinobia's support for them are, in our view, unfortunate and pathetic.
DeleteWe do not view Egypt as a model in any way, shape or form, although we hope that positive changes do occur, in spite of the fact that since Mubarak was removed we have only heard the same old-fashioned, superficial rhetoric and nothing concrete on the ground.
Federalism is a great thing.
If Egyptians believe in Unitary systems that is their prerogative however they are in no position to comment on the internal constitutional choices of other States.
The comment is arrogant and professes ignorance to all types of international legal and diplomatic norms.
We for one in Sudan could not be more different than Egypt with its passion for Arabism and Unitary governance.
As for Halayeb, I cannot say or admit that blood will not be shed over it although I hope that that day does not come.
We know for certain that the Sudanese population is completely against the unilateral, aggressive manner in which Mubarak chose to go beyond his predecessors and occupy Halayeb by force, at a time when the Sudanese armed forces were fighting on a number of fronts.
What a real democratic government will do to counteract Egypt's occupation of Halayeb I cannot say.
Downscaling engagement with Egypt until the issue is solved is a very probable occurrence.
Childish statements like Zeinobia's that 'Halayeb is Egyptian' will quite simply get Egypt, which is in a weak situation in the Nile Basin, anywhere.
But what I can say is that the demand of the Eastern Front, the 'real' traditional, organic, historical, civil society grouping of Halayeb's people for international arbitration in the exact same way Egypt went to international arbitration with Israel over Taba is absolutely reasonable.
Dear Africanist ,
DeleteI totally respect your point of view and would like to emphasize on the following :
- All sort of interferences from both sides are " Inacceptable ".
- Halayeb , is a matter of general consent between both countries. Nevertheless, I heard from one of my friends who has been there that there is Sudanese police forces there. Even in the last elections, it was president Bashir who refused to give them their electoral rights!!! General arbitration or Referendum should be a subject to negotiations. Border disputes exist and for your information could last for decades ,it is a " naïveté politique” to think that it should apprehend existing relations ,example ( Bahrain/Qatar , Iran/UAE , Kuwait/Iraq).
- The 1959 agreement, countries are defined by their respect for their international signed agreements; even-if it was under occupation. In Taba case , the old Ottoman maps and English maps were used. All the treaties signed between Germany ,after world war two.. Treaties signed after world war one for borders are respected till now. Re-negotiating should be done only with acceptance from other parties , this is International law. Just remember that now that our parliament shifted towards political Islamism, they should not think of cancelling our peace treaty with Israel. They could if they want ask for Re-negotiations our amendments and unfortunately they are all subject to Israelis willingness.
- Cooperative framework agreement of the Nile Basin , again and again , technically it should not be a point of worry .. Though , it was bizarre that the co-operation between Ethiopia & Israel had at the start a very low profile !!! If you intend to go in development phase in your country why go underground?? Nevertheless, the presence of most of the Nile Basin countries in any agreement is assertive for Egypt national security.
- I should add the important point from our side which is BORDER CONTROL. We have for 2 days a missing border patrol!!! Officials here think that Sudanese are not doing much , even some of them thinks that it is done intentionally.
One more thing, it makes everyone here feel bad when Sudan for more than 50 years is totally unstable , except for the few years in the seventies. It is also eminent that though War between South & North have stopped but still there is ongoing military actions and that all the international analysts assure that North Sudan map will not be the same in a very short time. Sudanese parties didn't do much for the past time starting from Darfur international crisis , Kurdufan to recent Nubia problems , and this why the international community had and will interfere.
Deepest regards to all my Sudanese brothers,
Sudanese Mahdist,
DeleteHalayib issue is same as Fisht El Debel ( Qatar/Bahrain) , Tanb Islands (UAE/Iran) ... I never heard a Bahraini claiming that the comment of a Qatari about the issue ( Childish ) ... "Your" feelings & "Our" feelings are totally normal ...
At least in Halayib case we offer a way out and you believe in a different course ,, others didn't even want to discuss it.
When you talk about Sudan , you should go over you personal clan .. I told you read the book " Negative effect of the Mahdi revolution on the Egyptian Sudanese relations" by Mohamed Elghamry... Nothing could be said after..
Deepest regards to all my Sudanese brothers ,
I should 'go over my personal clan' - what is that supposed to mean?
DeleteIt's not very good English.
The glorious Mahdist Revolution was a national liberation movement that united all the clans of Sudan.
We 'know' the Egyptian perspective on Sudan - that Egypt 'created' Sudan, that Egypt is entitled to Sudan, that Egypt 'owned' Sudan and then gave it away.
Our historical analysis is the exact opposite on each and every stated point.
It's high time 'you' read Sudan's history as written by the Sudanese!
What a ridiculous suggestion!
Why on earth should I read what an Egyptian Professor from Fayoum University wrote about 'my peoples' revolution?!
You go and read Faisal Ali Taha, Abu Salim and Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi's accounts of Sudan's history.
And exactly what way out has Egypt offered on Halayeb?
Halayeb is an open air prison and Halayeb's Sudanese civil society heads languish in Egyptian prisons with some having died from torture.
Halayeb's sovereignty is disputed with Mubarak's regime having taken it over 'by force' - in exactly the same way that Israel took the Golan.
The logical solution in this case is to go to international arbitration for both sides to put forward their case to a panel of neutral experts but Egypt is refusing this point blank even though it agreed to the same with Israel over Taba!
Please don't insult our intelligence.
I'm sorry but anecdotal evidence from unknown people and rubbish forums doesn't cut it for me.
DeleteNevertheless, I heard from one of my friends who has been there that there is Sudanese police forces there. Even in the last elections, it was president Bashir who refused to give them their electoral rights!!!
There are Sudanese troops who are 'trapped' in Halayeb since Egypt's occupation.
Exactly how did Sudan's President refuse to give the peoples of Halayeb electoral rights when Halayeb is under illegal Egyptian occupation?
It was Egypt who denied the peoples of Halayeb their constitutional rights that were recognised in all of Sudan's elections as well as by the National Electoral Commission which was overseen by a panel of international experts...
There are no negotiations that come as a precursor to international arbitration.
The sovereignty of Halayeb is disputed therefore the Sudanese side has proposed taking the dispute to international arbitration in exactly the same way that Egypt took its dispute with Israel over Taba to international arbitration.
And there have been similar cases at the International Court of Justice between Burkina Faso and Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon, Benin and Niger and Malaysia and Singapore.
The Upstream States will not re-negotiate the 1959 Agreement because Egypt opposes this so they are going around it by reflecting changes on the ground and overriding it through the new NBCFA.
If Egypt is not happy and thinks that this contravenes International Law, it can ask the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion, but of course it would be strange for Egypt to refuse international arbitration with Sudan over Halayeb and then to go to the highest international court for arbitration for an advisory opinion...
You have a border patrol that disappeared and we have Sudanese political prisoners in Egyptian prisons, some of whom died under torture.
What have you said about that?
What makes everyone sad is the failure of Egypt's 'revolution' to change anything in your attitudes towards Sudan or on the ground apart from holding a number of officials and the President accountable.
Egypt's economy is on the downturn and Egypt's structural problems continue to increase (too many people in a desert with limited water resources) just as your egos continue to become inflated.
Good luck.
And the worst thing is that Egyptians like you and Zeinobia criticised everything Mubarak did apart from his unilateral, illegal, military occupation of Halayeb.
Few of the Sudanese politicians admire the legacy of "Don Quixote" ... They are fighting "Wind Mills" and pay the price with the fate of their people..
Delete"Sudanese Mahdist" ... you say "We" want "We" decided , who is "We" ?!! Your party is not speaking on behalf of the Sudanese and should go read some of the comments here about Umma Party (http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58661)..!! They continue losing their precious time and fights are expanding in each corner of " Federal " Sudan..
Racism against Nubians should be discussed in Sudan (http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58962).
Preventing human aids for civilians in South Kurdufan & Blue Nile should be discussed.
My dear Africanist , If the people kept inside Halayib are imprisoned and tortured and from Sudanese origin , why are you afraid from a Referendum under international supervision ?!!!!!!!!!
I hate to tell you this but Egypt internationally is known for its respect for international laws and codes in the region even before 1952 and its respect for its signed treaties, after all the international courts are not after us !!!
If you have any claims about Sudanese who died from torture for political reasons, I and a lot of Egyptians are ready to help. I never heard this and you “Both” keep repeating it , so , pls send full available data that you have.
When I ask you to read a book about the effect of a revolution on two countries relation , it is not about the history of your people .. Though, his resources are from your “OWNs” , nothing much was written – as you know- about Mahdist revolution in Egypt. It is the facts in the book that are un-discussable. If I tell you that North States fought South States in America with one of the reasons being refusal to give south a free state and won, and, Spain is refusing to give the southern region of Basque independence, and after all, Egyptian officials fifty years ago gave you the opportunity to form your own “Federal” republic. When I tell you that more than 3 Millions Sudanese live in Egypt, a large part of them not being southern refugees and that in any other country in the region or the “Entire” world you don’t have such presence even in Ethiopia. And for decades, Sudanese are living , working , marrying without constrains in every corner in Egypt from Alexandria to Aswan .. and if I tell you that if you talk to majority of Egyptians about Sudan & Sudanese , we will hear positive perspectives.. If I tell you that fire is now on every corner of the remaining North Sudan, and that the tribal differences for the past years have overcome the “Sudanese identity” , and , that Sudanese different files are international issues for foreign interferences ; thus , the international community from your perspective is being “Maladroit”….. And you argue all of the above and keep talking about El-Mahdiya , with a different set of priorities ……… THAN SOMETHING IS DEFINITLY WRONG…!!!!
Being “Maladroit” & “Ignorant” : Egypt needs a strong, united , stable, free Sudan on its southern border in the future. Nothing about “Arabism” & “ Islamism” is said here…
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers,
Did we do this to our people in Nubia ??
Delete( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/world/africa/in-sudans-nuba-mountains-rocket-attacks-spread-fear.html?_r=1)
Did we do this for Sudan when they ask for independance or in our dispute over Halayib??
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/sudans-oil-dispute-with-south-sudan-turns-violent/2012/03/29/gIQAKcnNhS_story.html)
Needless , to mention Darfur....
Few of the Sudanese politicians admire the legacy of "Don Quixote" ... They are fighting "Wind Mills" and pay the price with the fate of their people..
Delete"Sudanese Mahdist" ... you say "We" want "We" decided , who is "We" ?!! Your party is not speaking on behalf of the Sudanese and should go read some of the comments here about Umma Party (http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58661)..!! They continue losing their precious time and fights are expanding in each corner of " Federal " Sudan..
Racism against Nubians should be discussed in Sudan (http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58962).
Preventing human aids for civilians in South Kurdufan & Blue Nile should be discussed.
My dear Africanist , If the people kept inside Halayib are imprisoned and tortured and from Sudanese origin , why are you afraid from a Referendum under international supervision ?!!!!!!!!!
I hate to tell you this but Egypt internationally is known for its respect for international laws and codes in the region even before 1952 and its respect for its signed treaties, after all the international courts are not after us !!!
If you have any claims about Sudanese who died from torture for political reasons, I and a lot of Egyptians are ready to help. I never heard this and you “Both” keep repeating it , so , pls send full available data that you have.
When I ask you to read a book about the effect of a revolution on two countries relation , it is not about the history of your people .. Though, his resources are from your “OWNs” , nothing much was written – as you know- about Mahdist revolution in Egypt. It is the facts in the book that are un-discussable. If I tell you that North States fought South States in America with one of the reasons being refusal to give south a free state and won, and, Spain is refusing to give the southern region of Basque independence, and after all, Egyptian officials fifty years ago gave you the opportunity to form your own “Federal” republic. When I tell you that more than 3 Millions Sudanese live in Egypt, a large part of them not being southern refugees and that in any other country in the region or the “Entire” world you don’t have such presence even in Ethiopia. And for decades, Sudanese are living , working , marrying without constrains in every corner in Egypt from Alexandria to Aswan .. and if I tell you that if you talk to majority of Egyptians about Sudan & Sudanese , we will hear positive perspectives.. If I tell you that fire is now on every corner of the remaining North Sudan, and that the tribal differences for the past years have overcome the “Sudanese identity” , and , that Sudanese different files are international issues for foreign interferences ; thus , the international community from your perspective is being “Maladroit”….. And you argue all of the above and keep talking about El-Mahdiya , with a different set of priorities ……… THAN SOMETHING IS DEFINITLY WRONG…!!!!
Being “Maladroit” & “Ignorant” : Egypt needs a strong, united , stable, free Sudan on its southern border in the future. Nothing about “Arabism” & “ Islamism” is said here…
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers,
Few of the Sudanese politicians admire the legacy of "Don Quixote" ... They are fighting "Wind Mills" and pay the price with the fate of their people..
Delete"Sudanese Mahdist" ... you say "We" want "We" decided , who is "We" ?!! Your party is not speaking on behalf of the Sudanese and should go read some of the comments here about Umma Party (http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58661)..!! They continue losing their precious time and fights are expanding in each corner of " Federal " Sudan..
Racism against Nubians should be discussed in Sudan (http://www.hurriyatsudan.com/?p=58962).
Preventing human aids for civilians in South Kurdufan & Blue Nile should be discussed.
My dear Africanist , If the people kept inside Halayib are imprisoned and tortured and from Sudanese origin , why are you afraid from a Referendum under international supervision ?!!!!!!!!!
I hate to tell you this but Egypt internationally is known for its respect for international laws and codes in the region even before 1952 and its respect for its signed treaties, after all the international courts are not after us !!!
If you have any claims about Sudanese who died from torture for political reasons, I and a lot of Egyptians are ready to help. I never heard this and you “Both” keep repeating it , so , pls send full available data that you have.
When I ask you to read a book about the effect of a revolution on two countries relation , it is not about the history of your people .. Though, his resources are from your “OWN's” , nothing much was written – as you know- about Mahdist revolution in Egypt. It is the facts in the book that are un-discussable. If I tell you that North States fought South States in America with one of the reasons being refusal to give south a free state and won, and, Spain is refusing to give the southern region of Basque independence, and after all, Egyptian officials fifty years ago gave you the opportunity to form your own “Federal” republic. When I tell you that more than 3 Millions Sudanese live in Egypt, a large part of them not being southern refugees and that in any other country in the region or the “Entire” world you don’t have such presence even in Ethiopia. And for decades, Sudanese are living , working , marrying without constrains in every corner in Egypt from Alexandria to Aswan .. and if I tell you that if you talk to majority of Egyptians about Sudan & Sudanese , we will hear positive perspectives.. If I tell you that fire is now on every corner of the remaining North Sudan, and that the tribal differences for the past years have overcome the “Sudanese identity” , and , that Sudanese different files are international issues for foreign interferences ; thus , the international community from your perspective is being “Maladroit”….. And you argue all of the above and keep talking about El-Mahdiya , with a different set of priorities making Egypt on the top of your problems……… THAN SOMETHING IS DEFINITLY WRONG…!!!!
DeleteBeing “Maladroit” & “Ignorant” : Egypt needs a strong, united , stable, free Sudan on its southern border in the future. Nothing about “Arabism” & “ Islamism” is said here…
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers,
Provide evidence of Egypt's call for a referendum in Halayeb.
DeleteWe are the majority who voted in the Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi in Sudan's last free and fair elections in 1986.
DeleteRacism against Nubians in Sudan? Hahaha!
You don't even know the difference between Nubians and Nubans.
Your ignorance is laughable.
FYI no one who voices their views on that e-paper supports Egypt or is a fan of it or its vision of relations with Sudan since 1820 to this day.
Sudanese mahdist,
DeleteI sent you an article from Sudanese newspaper proving how you deal with your owns.. Sudanese killed and still each other more than all the surrounding countries did to them... This is what I am trying to tell you ... Pretending that it is all about Egypt & Halayib and tortured Sudaneses in Egyptian prison is another bogus story ... Anyhow, I am confident to tell you that when Ummah party will come to power , Egypt wont have common borders with the remaining replubic ruled by Mahdist which I don't know the name ( Probably: North-central eastern Sudan).
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers ,
Sudanese Mahdist,
DeleteWhen I ask you to read a book about the effect of a revolution on two countries relation , it is not about the history of your people .. Though, his resources are from your “OWNs” , nothing much was written – as you know- about Mahdist revolution in Egypt. It is the facts in the book that are un-discussable. If I tell you that North States fought South States in America with one of the reasons being refusal to give south a free state and North won, and, Spain is still refusing to give the southern region of Basque independence, and after all, Egyptian officials fifty years ago gave you the opportunity to form your own “Federal” republic. When I tell you that more than 3 Millions Sudanese live in Egypt, a large part of them not being southern refugees and that in any other country in the region or the “Entire” world you don’t have such presence even in Ethiopia. And for decades, Sudanese are living , working , marrying without constrains in every corner in Egypt from Alexandria to Aswan .. and if I tell you that if you talk to majority of Egyptians about Sudan & Sudanese , we will hear positive perspectives.....If I tell you that fire is now on every corner of the remaining North Sudan, and that the tribal differences for the past years have overcome the “Sudanese identity” , and , that Sudanese different files are international issues for foreign interferences ; thus , the international community from your perspective is being “Maladroit”…... And you argue all of the above and keep talking about El-Mahdiya glorious revolution which occured 2 centuries ago , with a different set of current priorities ……… THAN SOMETHING IS DEFINITLY WRONG…!!!!
Egypt needs a FREE - STABLE - UNITED SUDAN on its southern border ...
Reading the news about the clashes of Sabha in Libya , the ongoing clashes on the North/South Sudanese border , South Kurdufan and Blue Nile crisis , Ongoing crisis in darfur , East-Libya vs Tripolitana & Fazan , Gaza being the ultimate training target for Israeili forces , Syria ongoing massacres , Iraqi Multi-territorial republic.... And overall, the hazy internal political/economical future in Egypt ... Lead to a heart attack ....
DeleteCAN'T WE FIND A "MALADROIT" LEADER - (from any nationality) - WHO COULD CLEAR THIS RIF-RAF FOR US & RESTORE HOPE FOR THE REGION?!!!
Good Study Ummah Party & Israel since 1954 !!!!
Delete( http://www.dohainstitute.org/Home/Details/5d045bf3-2df9-46cf-90a0-d92cbb5dd3e4/d95fc031-ae32-436b-b1d9-0ebd57aadbc9#aa2 )
Another Nasser?
DeleteThat selfish man who sacrificed the Nubians and Sudan for his self-preservation under a guise of Arabism that has been relegated to the dustbin of history forever..?
In your dreams...
Each country's people should sort their own problems out and it's not as if yours doesn't have any at this very moment...
You personally as an Egyptian citizen are a beneficiary of your State's relationship (military, economic, strategic) with Israel.
Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Any communication the Umma Party allegedly had with Israel led...to...nothing.
Nothing like your beloved QIZ.
I hate Nasser ..
DeleteIsrael is the friendly state that protects our border and feeds us ... This is why 6 months ago we were burning their embassy and we fought all the regional wars with them .. We have the highest number of martyrs throughout the years and still our army is their ultimate contender ....
Please revise the qiz program and its financial analysis for the past years instead of repeating issues without proof like the bogus story of Sudanese prisoners tortured in Egyptian prisons...
You didn't read the study :))
Did El-mahdi ever talked about it ?
Did you know from where did Umma party got its finance ?
Did you know that before your independence Ummah party offered to help Israel & its allies to attack Egypt in 1956?
Did you know how Ummah Party co-operated with the Israelis against his Sudanese brothers just because they hold different perspectives?
Did you know Ummah Party role when Ethiopian army in 1979 was on your borders ready for massive invasion to help southern troops?
Did you know regular meetings from 1954 between Ummah party & Israelis officials?
Have you ever heard the word " Conspiracy "?!!
Sudan is being divided and work is in progress , you should ask one question :" Who is the beneficiary?"
If it is in the interest of the Sudanese people, than good luck..
My deepest regards to all my Sudanese brothers,
Good article about Ummah party and its internal role against other political powers and Sudanese integrity!!!
Delete( http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=15&msg=1252904442 )...
Dear Africanist,
DeleteWhen you critized the Egyptian foreign minister remarks on Libya , Can't you be sincere and say that Ummah party involvement in 1956 Israeili attack on Egypt was " Maladroit "??
Ummah party actions towards Sudanese rivals could be considered as an internal issue ...
Your disrespect of our political prisoners in your country is absolutely unacceptable.
Deletehttp://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/ar1/exec/view.cgi/8/7362
http://www.redsea4all.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=349:-12-&catid=1:news-world&Itemid=2
Israel is the reason for the huge economic and military aid and investment that your country receives from the USA.
Have you cut diplomatic ties with Israel?
NO!
Are you beneficiaries (the citizens of Egypt) of your official, diplomatic, economic, strategic and military ties with Israel?
Yes.
You hate Nasser and at the same time you boast about how you fought Israel...
Just don't expect that your sense of entitlement to Sudan will receive any legitimacy from an Islamist agenda more than it did under an Arabist agenda.
The Umma Party has nothing to show for alleged engagement with Israel, contrary to Egypt 'today'.
The Umma Party is Sudan's biggest mainstream, traditional party and we have in the past, in the present and we shall in the future continue to refuse taking all the rubbish deals Egypt's leaders have given our people.
Egypt unilaterally, aggressively, ilegally occupies Halayeb as we speak and you cannot deny that.
Ethiopia never did the same to Sudan.
Umma Party's role in Israel's attack on Egypt in 1956, the same year Sudan got its independence?
DeleteIts military role? (impossible)
Logistical role? (impossible)
Financial role? (impossible)
You really outdid yourself there...
I don't have time for dimwits.
Being an 'Africanist' my mind is better spent engaging Sudan's real African partners, or engaging with intelligent people.
Dear Sirs,
DeleteIn Egypt Drugs & Arms traffickers are not considered “Political Prisoners” , I am not aware of the situation in Sudan.
The US aid to Egypt was declared to be 1.3 Billions USD and 80% is for military purposes. Europe & Gulf states provide aid to Egypt 7 times than this number!!
Any independent state has the right to engage in political relations with any other country – neighbors have not the right to interfere – nevertheless, political parties all over the world don’t have the right either to go against the countries majority orientation…. And moreover, lies ..conspiracy … pretending what you are not are not just considered “maladroit” but in some countries treason.
Israelis are burning their Trojan horse that they have been riding for the past 50 years , the ride is over and goals are almost achieved … Get ready for the next Wikileaks about Sudan in the near future …
Due to the fact that your backgrounds is unknown , I have to tell you that scientific analysis of any study requires that you go through cited references and check their credibility ..
What does “hating Nasser” has to do with “Boasting the way on how we fought Israel”..?!!!
Mr Sadiq El-Mahdi came and will come to Egypt , not because he wants to discuss the negative effect of the Egyptian/Sudanese relations but because he knows that Cairo is still the center of gravity of the region whether you like it or not …. Some of Ummah party don’t know or claim otherwise but I am sorry to tell you that even the rest of Nile Basin countries know this even “OUR” strong neighbor Ethiopia.
Everyone will be more than happy if you find documents contradicting the study about Israel & Ummah Party …And if you have names of political Sudanese prisoners in Egypt , ready to help ..
Deepest regards to My Sudanese brothers,
What majority orientation are you talking about?
DeleteRemember - you know nothing about Sudan...
If your politicians hadn't colluded historically not only with Israel but with the Colonial powers, then you could claim some kind of moral high ground - but you can't.
You are personally a beneficiary of your State's official relations with Israel whilst no Sudanese person or member of the Umma Party is in a similar situation and those are the facts.
The rebel groups in Darfur have engaged with Israel, just as official Egypt has.
It is moral bankruptcy to admonish others for things that you carry out.
We have listed the names of the Sudanese political prisoners from Halayeb who are illegally detained in Egypt on this blog many times before.
The usual response is:
Egypt does this to everyone,
They are Egyptians and now,
The low accusation (that reflects a lot about you) that are drug dealers and arms traffickers.
Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi visits Cairo to teach, educate and enlighten the Egyptian 'nukhba' which is completely ignorant about Sudan, about the facts, in the hope that they will change their mindset.
He also visits the United States and Europe regularly.
So keep on thinking that Egypt is the centre of gravity of the region (at least now it's been down-sized from the world) and stick to your delusions of grandeur, keep on having more babies and living on your strip of land in the desert, and we and our real Nile Basin partners will continue to grow in cognisance of our rights and of how States all over the world engage.
Nile Basin countries growing is for Egypt's benifit specially "OUR" Sudanese brothers ..
DeleteI don't recall that anyone went from Cairo to Al-sadiq Al-mahdi , he is always coming here and since he was young he came to be educated in Alexandria and moreover his tutor in Khartoum ( Thabet Guerguis - Egyptian ) was behind sending him to continue his studies in England .. Didn't you read your Imam personal Bio ?!!
You should ask him , why do people in the region came and still come to be educated here ?!!
You gave only one name of an Egyptian who commited trafficing crimes .. Don't you have others ??
I want to focus on 2 things :
DeleteEgypt had a relation with Israel- known to everyone- and we didn't have to hide it for 50 years and paid its regional price ..
Where I come from traficing is a crime and the man was an Egyptian , why should we have set him free even if he is from other nationality?!!
I wonder what Il-Imam who united Sudanese and fought for their identity would think about his grandchildren who are struggling for dividing his land and destroying the united Sudanese identity...
Anyone who comes to Egypt and doesn't know its value is a "Persona non grata".....
DeleteGood study for you :( From 3000 Bc - till present ) what is the most influencial country in the region ?
Should we pay the price for this ? should we pay the price that when Noble price came to the region 4 times ,we had it ... When the first UN secretary came from Africa he was Egyptian ...That El-Azhar (Biggest current Sunni institution) is in Egypt ... The oldest Orthodox church and the biggest regional is in Egypt ... The arab league is in Egypt .. The biggest Sudanese community abroad is in Egypt ...
Am I talking about the present or past ?!!
Should we pay the price for that ?!!!
No one said it is Eutopia here , we have our differences , our problems and even our ignorance about communities who are 400 km away ( in Siwa)... Why on earth should we know Sudan by heart ?!!
Why are trying to get around the evidence of the long secret collaboration between Sudanese Ummah party and Israel??
Egypt has manipulated Nile Basin development for its favour and at the expense of the other Nile States, in particular Sudan and the High Dam and 1959 Agreements are evidence of that and that much is fact.
DeleteNow that African States have gained their independence and emerged and are growing economically with partners such as China, Egypt's former role has withered and Egypt can only stand at the sidelines as the other States take their fair share of the Nile's waters and development, and when the Spring returns to Sudan we will join them in the new Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement.
Oh so now Sudanese Copts are Egyptian?
The Mahdi families ties to the UK predate any Guerguis and whilst he inspired Al-Imam Al-Sadiq it is not inconceivable that he would have studied abroad anyway, as did his late wife as-seyyda Sarah Al-Fadil (also from the Mahdi family) studied at the University of New York and his uncle Al-Imam Ahmad Al-Mahdi studied at the University of London...
Once more, although you would be loathe to admit it, we were not beasts that were tamed or civilised by Egyptians.
You should be honoured that he studied in Alexandria and then he went over and beyond it, unlike many of his colleagues to complete his studies in one of the best universities in the world in Oxford.
Which man was Egyptian?
They hold Sudanese nationality and some were elected members of Halayeb's council and customary leaders...
It is shameful for your leaders to not visit and to not know Sudan.
Ultimately it is your country and successive generations that do and will pay the price for this arrogant ignorance - we all know in which direction the water flows...
The despicable Nour Salafi party visited Sudan, I don't think they would have learned anything with the level of intellect they have as did Al-Badawi Shehata who was promised land by our thieving government that they could not deliver because they know the 'reaction' of the 'Sudanese people' - what's ours is ours, in the words of the late, great Imam AbdelRahman Al-Mahdi 'Sudan for the Sudanese'.
What is the Sudanese identity?
Didn't I tell you many times before that you know nothing about Sudan?
The largest Sudanese community outside Sudan is not in Egypt, there are more Sudanese living in both Saudi Arabia and the USA.
DeleteEgypt's 'soft power' in Sudan is over.
On the topic of Israel you sound like a Zionist singing the praises of world Jewry when you talk about Egypt.
Egypt has a special geo-strategic position and Egyptians are resourceful but they are in no way predisposed to greatness or more meritorious of it than others, based on geography alone.
Egypt is in no way equipped to lead anything.
Brazil is entirely in South America and yet it is seen as a 'leading' nation due to objective factors: its economic growth, its agricultural know-how, it's industrial prowess - all things based on the here and now not on long-gone fairy tales of delusions of grandeur.
And please have better indicators than Nobel and the UNSC Chairmanship which are both highly political and were mostly achieved under the guidance of yesterday's darling and today's villain Mubarak.
Boutros-Boutros Ghali is a liar, grandson of a liar and brother of a liar and we despise him in Sudan for the roles his ancestor played during the Anglo-Egyptian Condominium as much as for anything else.
It's true what they say about ignorance being bliss - Mahfouz is a literary giant, but have you read anything by Salih?
Do you even know who he is?
Do you know that his novel was designated one of the 50 best novels in the world and that he 'was' shortlisted for the Nobel prize?
Sudan has the most pyramids of any country in the world, the oldest African metallurgical society, the closest ties to ancient Nubians...no one really cares.
You have been breastfed since Nasser's time to think that you are 'special', let me put it nicely, we don't think you are.
You are not special enough to get away with a dam that benefits you at our expense,
You are not special enough to resort to international arbitration with Israel and not with Sudan over a territorial dispute,
You are not special enough to have close diplomatic, security and economic relations with Israel and to admonish others for doing the same and
You are definitely not special enough to uphold the defunct historical rights doctrine which has been relegated to the dustbin of Public International Law.
Keep on justifying your ignorance.
Just know that we will never accept Egypt's unilateral, illegal occupation of Halayeb and its refusal to go to international arbitration like it did with Egypt and the criticism by Egyptians of everything Mubarak did apart from this heinous act,
We will never forget how Egypt benefited and continues to benefit from the High Dam at our expense,
We support the new Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement and will join it once the Spring returns to Sudan.
We will never allow Sudan to be used to outsource Egypt's employment and food security problems and measures will be taken when the Spring returns to Sudan.
And more than 60 years later you have encapsulated the late, great Umma Party leader, former Prime Minister and Foreign Minister and poetic genius said (when referring to Egyptian and Sudanese necks)
'If they were both slit at the same altar, their currents of blood would flow in opposite directions'.
And I have nothing more to add really, I might as well build bridges with people who are intelligent enough to respect differences, the Ethiopians.
"... Sudan has the most pyramids of any country in the world, the oldest African metallurgical society, the closest ties to ancient Nubians...no one really cares..." and I will add that 60% of the Nile goes through Sudan...
DeleteThough ..
The world think that Pyramids are in Egypt and that Egypt is the gift of the Nile ....
Are we the "Ignorants" who think this or it is the "Entire" world ...
You want us to pay the price for your failure to represent yourself to the world for thousands of years ... What do we have to do with this?!!
I told you , we wish you the best .. If spring comes to Sudan , we should benifit ... It is not your choice , it is how it goes in history...
If you want to convince yourself that from 3 to 4 Million Sudanese are living in Saudi arabia , that's fine with me..
We have an ongoing relation with Israel , but , getting paid under table is another issue .. If you accept this that's fine with me.
Why El-Mahdi was send for education in Alexandria? Because they have the "worst" schools at that time in the region , you are right...
The good news is that today they declared that the coastal Red Sea road between Egypt & Sudan will be opened next September inshaala..
My deepest regards to all MY Sudanese brothers,
I am Nubian and yes Ancient Egypt and Ancient Nubia did have ties of cultural exchange, trade and.....wars and occupation.
DeleteThe way you treat your own Nubians in Egypt and the way your portray them as off-shoots of Lower Egypt is both unacceptable to us and pathetic.
The denigratory way you portray them in your media is revolting.
No wonder they feel stifled in your 'Arab Republic'.
If the Nubians were given their rightful place in Egypt and if their culture and language was given the respect and space it deserved, then that would contribute towards improved, organic, long-term relations between Sudan and Egypt.
That's something for you to think about.
Yes 60% of the Nile goes through Sudan, in 'three' river basins, only one of which we share with Egypt...
We share more River Basins, even Nilotic River Basins with Ethiopia...
The Blue Nile Valley is just as precious to us as the River Nile Valley - once more, it and by association you are not special.
Yes this myth of the Nile being synonymous with Egypt has been around for a while but guess what?
People also thought that the Earth was flat...
And by the way the entire world thinks that the historical rights doctrine is rubbish, and 'you' are the only party that clings to it, so let's not talk about myths and focus on more substantive doctrine.
The whole world actually does care about Sudan, more than the Egyptian nukhba who offer outdated soundbites, rhetoric, blabber and in the case of Abu Ismail lies!
They care about Sudan more than Egyptian archaeologists and academics, they acknowledge our achievements and specificities, they engage with us more meaningfully and it's quite clear whose responsibility that it.
What is more they respect us and respect our specificities.
They do not profess a sense of entitlement to us.
When the Spring comes to Sudan you will benefit?
You didn't benefit in the last Spring in 1985 which led to the free and fair election of Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi as the Prime Minister of Sudan, or before that in the first Spring during the Madhist Revolution, did you?
History has a tendency to repeat itself...
The Ministry of the Interior of Sudan releases statistics on Sudanese abroad and there are more Sudanese in both Saudi Arabia and the USA than in Egypt - sorry, once more, you are 'not' special.
You have a strategic relationship with Israel at all levels including intelligence, not just an ongoing relationship.
You completely outdo us in that domain, even if they conglomerated all the Sudanese who've had contacts with Israel and lumped them together.
In this regard....you 'are' special.
Victoria College is an excellent and prestigious and outstanding educational institution, no one doubts that.
It should be honoured that Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi studied there, as opposed to similar institutions in Europe.
Yes the coastal road will be complete soon - such an irony in light of the continued illegal, unilateral Egyptian occupation of Halayeb and the fact that it is practically an open-air prison and a no-go area.
I hate to tell you the evident truth , But I have to :
DeleteGo to Wikipedia "History of Sudan"
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sudan) ,
regardless that they mention the eternal, unbreakable tie between the 2 countries - that you are trying after 5000 to argue about its benefit- the amazing thing is that "Egypt" was mentioned in the article more "Sudan" .. :)))))))
You have to overcome this, and listen: We see Sudanese as brothers & partners .. We make funny stories about people of upper Egypt but they are still our brothers.. We don't know much about the Bedouins in Sinai but they are still our brothers ... Some of us don't know where are the oasis and their names but people living there are still our brothers...
We failed to cover the needs for all our people on all borders ... but still for us they are Egyptians and you know what I am sure that if the moment comes they will be ready to give their life for this word "Egypt" as they always did for the past 5000 years.......
You want us to know by heart "Sudan" ... " Sudanese" ... " Sudanese history" ... "Sudanese tribes" ....Mutual relations don't go like this except in Harry potter stories... Providing the fact that you failed to present yourself here and still..
The sense of “Entitlement” exists in your head and is a part of this inferiority syndrome that we don't have nothing to do about it and we shouldn't pay its price.... Egyptians don't patronize Sudanese...
The water issue: Actually, this file - if you heard this term before- is a "National Security" file.. Countries all over the world tend to deal with this sort of files on all levels. Sorry to tell you this but there are no red lines … The best way is through negotiations to achieve a middle point with a compromise from all parties …
Halayib for us is Egyptian with the same concept that it is Sudanese for you.. We understand how you feel about it as you should understand how we do.. You could waist your precious time in all forums with no benefit.. I am sure that it will be solved with consent between both countries sooner or later...
Relations between Egypt & Sudan deteriorated for the past 20 years , why is that ? I can give you some reasons: Mubarak failed assassination attempt and Sudanese role in it , Israeli direct interference in Sudan , South Sudanese war of independence , Darfur, continuous flow of arms & drugs through Sudanese borders without willingness of apprehending this, Mubarak mismanagement of the African files (Though YOU hate Botros Ghali but he was an add-on for our relations in Africa)…
One thing for sure , clandestine relations between a party and secret service agency when it is associated with money (in any country) is considered an act of treason…
Regards,
"... The way you treat your own Nubians in Egypt and the way your portray them as off-shoots of Lower Egypt is both unacceptable to us and pathetic..." ...
DeleteYou should be talking about a different country , our CURRENT status updated : Current outnumbered fans and best singer "Mohamed Mounir" , Best current Soccer player " Shikabala" ,even our current ruler mother's ( Field Marshal Tantawy) .... They are all "Nubians"....
Regards,
Only an ignoramus would read 'Egypt' in wikipedia's entry on Sudan.
DeleteYes it it mentioned frequently but in which context?
In the context of the two occupations.
There is an Egyptian sense of entitlement towards Sudan.
Egyptian politicians, thinkers and policy makers (including but not limited to Sufi Abu Talib, Al-badawy Shihata and that female agricultural expert Zeinobia keeps posting about) all refer to Sudan in terms of it fulfilling Egypt's 'food security needs' and in terms of it being Egypt's lebensraum (living space).
We do not accept that and no other civilised nation perceives its neighbour in these terms.
Egypt's rhetoric and slogans on Sudan are pathetic, they profess 'eternal bonds' when the above average Egyptian, like yourself, doesn't know anything about Sudan.
The average educated French person knows more about Germany and vice-versa than what even your politicians know about the 'sisterly nation'...
My point is that your approach towards dealing with all things Sudanese as an Egyptian 'add-on' is fundamentally flawed, and your example of wikipedia's Sudan entry containing many references to Egypt is a prime example of that - extremely superficial way of looking at things.
The Upstream States have side-stepped negotiations and Egypt's time delay tactics and are doing it on their own, and we fully support them.
Halayeb's sovereignty is disputed and Mubarak who you criticise for 'everything' was the one who took the decision to unilaterally and illegally occupy it 'be force' - something that neighbouring Ethiopia has never done to us...
You and Zeinobia criticise Mubarak for everything apart from that heinous action and that says a lot about your attitudes about Sudan and the Sudanese to all the Sudanese everywhere.
You go beyond that and disgustingly refer to the Sudanese civil society leaders from Halayeb who are detained in Egypt's prisons and some of whom have been tortured to death, as drug dealers and smugglers.
Egypt took its dispute over Taba with Israel to international arbitration and we 'demand' the same level of treatment.
Anything else is unjustifiable.
Go and read history, relations between Sudan and Egypt deteriorated before 1989, they deteriorated since 1821.
DeleteThey deteriorated with Nasser's funding of the National Unionist Party during our first free and fair elections - it is a satisfying irony of fate than the Unionist Premier leading the Unionist dominated Parliament had to bow to the popular will spearheaded by the Ansar and Al-Imam AbdelRahman Al-Mahdi to declare independence.
They deteriorated with Nasser's support for Sudan's first military takeover of power in November 1958 by a General with ties to Egypt.
They deteriorated with Nasser pushing through the inequitable 1959 Agreement with the puppet regime.
They deteriorated with the Southern Sudanese when the General with ties to Egypt took a page out of Egypt's book and tried to 'Arabise' the South by force.
They deteriorated with the forcible transfer of over 50,000 Sudanese and the inundation of Sudanese land 'for Egypt's benefit', and another satisfying turn of fate would have this as one of the reasons for the first 'Spring' in the Arabic speaking world in 1964 when the people brought down the authorisation government in October.
They deteriorated when Nasser made attempt to infiltrate Halayeb with Egyptian troops and the late great Umma Party icon Muhammad Ahmad Al-Mahgoub successfully took the issue to the Security Council who released a declaration calling on Egypt to 'desist from any attempts to occupy Halayeb'.
They deteriorated during the Prime Ministership of Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi in 1986 when he demanded for a new paradigm in Sudan-Egypt relations which was scuppered by the Egyptian side.
And the list goes on...
What you mentioned is from 1989-1999, one decade of a rotten, unelected regime in Sudan which antagonised all over our neighbours.
You can kid yourself and superficially think that Boutros-Boutros Ghali and before him Nasser were 'good' for Africa, maybe they engaged Africa more than Mubarak's regime, but Africans are not naive and they know Egypt's crooked ways in monopolising power, particularly in the Nile Basin.
Yes you would also consider the Mahdiyya treason, but we Sudanese love it.
We have immortalised Al-Makk Nimir, a leader of the Ja'liyeen tribe (things you know nothing about) when he exacted revenge on Muhammad Ali's son Ismail who occupied his land, fought his people and killed them and humiliated him by inviting him and his cortege to a feast, plying them with alcohol and then burning them alive.
Past generations immortalised Al-Makk Nimir in song and poetry and today and biggest and newest 'Turkish built' bridge over the *Blue Nile* is officially named after.................Al-Makk Nimir.
Let's see where your lack of red lines coupled with your historical delusions of grandeur get you.
"Inferiority Syndrome" ... You should get over it...
Delete"...historical delusions of grandeur ...." You should go tell the ignorants of Wikipedia ....
France / Germany ... Bad try , I lived in border town in Germany for couple of months and used to go in & out to France ... And , you know what the majority of them don't even understand each others language , nevertheless , they were not winding about it and asking for self-history lessons to other parties.
France/ Germany were at war for centuries and still no one today is speaking about their nearest (Second world war) and they are moving to the future ... But you hold Mohamed Ali infront of you , waisting your time cursing him day & night .. Good luck , but I should remind you that while you do this people are dying where you are.
You don't speak on behalf of Africans , they are able to determine Egypt's role and importance .. You know what , you don't even speak on behalf of the Sudanese , you could speak on behalf of your movement which is a fraction of Sudanese population (In North Sudan Republic ) ... That's it..
Good luck ,
Still my deepest regards to all My sudanese brothers,
Yes and Shikabala gets treated with the utmost respect doesn't he?
DeleteHe never resigned because of 'racist' taunts did he..???
Neither France nor German nor respected French or Germans speak about each other with a sense of entitlement.
Delete'Only' the Egyptians do so with Sudan just like the way they are the 'only' State to defend the defunct 'historical rights' to international waters doctrine.
Sort yourselves out.
You don't even know my country's official name.
You don't know about Sudanese history.
You don't know the sentiments or culture of the Sudanese people.
You expected the entire Sudanese nation to support Egypt in its match against Algeria, as if they owed some kind of debt or were still personal vassals of Egypt.
I do speak on behalf of myself, my movement, my heritage, my history and the common bonds and mutual respect I have encountered in Addis Abeba, Nairobi and Kampala.
"Inferiority Syndrome" ... " Sense of Entitelement" ... You need to get over both ,they are in your head ...
DeleteRemember the 4 Millions Sudanese living with us, are treated as one of us , they face what we face ,no special treatement..
Shikabala : The Ultras -Sadly- don't leave anyone in the field without insults .. Last Ahly/Zamalek , they were saying bad things about Emad Moteeb' wife and Shikabala got his share ... Though ,you should ask how he is treated in the streets from all supporter ... Needless , to mention Mohamed Mounir who can't even walk in the streets of Cairo..
Egypt/Algeria : of course Sudanese should support who they want , though , you should ask Sudanese sports when they come for different events in Egypt about treatement that they get ...It was not about football from the start.!!
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers,
Yes the Sudanese in Mustafa Mahmoud were treated the same as other Egyptians weren't they?
DeleteOr the Sudanese in Halayeb who aren't allowed to visit their kith and kin in Sudan?
Watch, listen and learn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxNpZL1_ZJ0
Mustafa Mahmoud was the fault of a severe police regime that everyone saw the treatement that they gave us on the 28 of January 2011 ( Just one example ) , though , South Sudanese refugees were not chanting infront of the mosque peacefully...
DeleteHalayeb citizens are like my relatives in Aswan who have intermarital relations with Sudanese, getting your passport is the first step ..and the second is the way out , I understood that due to Arms - Drugs traficing security doesn't allow moving on the coastal roads, as they want, and they have to follow another longer road providing they have clearances.( If you have a name of anyone trapped inside just send it to me ,even by email if you want)
Or you mean Sudanese security forces who are still in Halayeb??
We have listed the Sudanese civil society members from Halayeb who have been detained without trial in Egypt many, many times - exercise some diligence and 'read'.
DeleteAnd for the hundredth time Al-Taher Muhammad Hasaay, the former head of the Halayeb Council (a Sudanese institution) and a member of the Bisharin tribe who was campaigning against the Egyptian military presence in the Halayeb triangle, died in a hospital in Cairo after having been detained by Egyptian security forces without trial for two years.
But then again that would be expecting too much from someone so selectively minded.
There is 'no way' to justify what Mubarak did when he decided to unilaterally, invade and occupy Halayeb illegally and by force.
None of our other neighbours occupy a part of our land and our peoples in such a way.
Are you so ignorant to know that travel into and outside Halayeb is restricted by the Egyptian authorities?!
We will never ever allow this issue to go, the wresting by force of sovereignty.
There is no difference between the Israeli occupation of the Golan and Egypt's occupation of Halayeb.
The only difference is that Egypt takes its disputes with Israel to international arbitration and refuses to do the same with Sudan.
Successive Egyptian generations will pay for this double-standard which you Zeinobia justify.
"..Successive Egyptian generations will pay .." , We don't have to pay anything ,EVEN IF , Mubarak actions were wrong , Mohamed Ali , The whole world perception about Egypt history related to Sudan...
DeleteBefore Mubarak kikking Sudanese troops out of Halayeb , where were the Egyptian border guards for 70 years ?!! They were based on the 22 parallel on the coast of the Red Sea. What was happening there was a unique situation that you allow force from another country to be based behind your lines;Situation was tending to explode in any moment for decades ... Though, what were the casualities from both sides- in action- ??? Zeeeeerooooo , No one , nada , zilsh ... doesn't this tell you anything ?!! Of course not , you needed hundreds killed like Abyeii recent fights and thousands of deported people to clear the coming generations from being subject of paying the price..
" Halayeb referendum" ... remember that i told you this from control room years before it will be announced ... And , you know what Mr Al-Mahdi will go then cheering and thanking Egypt for reaching a peacfull solution!!!
You are giving me for one month " Taher " name only ,can't you provide names of people trapped that we can help and other casualities -if any?!!
"...None of our other neighbours occupy a part of our land and our peoples in such a way.." .... South Sudan!!!!!
You didn't tell us , did your people in Ummah party know about the long collaboration between Mahdist' and Israeli secret service and the money received since the fifties?!!
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers
Will you never desist from asking dimwitted questions?!
DeleteYou asked how many Sudanese died during the Egyptian occupation (the answer is in the tens of thousands) but that is not the point, nor is it the point that no 'troops' died even though Al-Sheikh Al-Taher died...
And your double standard is sickening - your Khaled Said's blood is not more precious than our Taher Hasaay's.
Egypt's occupation of Halayeb is an affront to our collective dignity, 'karaama' - a concept you are obviously unaware of.
Where 'you personally' choose to criticise everything Mubarak did apart from his aggressive, unilateral, unwarranted, illegal occupation of Halayeb - yes successive generations will pay.
Because when the Spring returns to Sudan and Democracy reigns supreme people will say look at what the Egyptians did and how they treated Sudan by occupying Halayeb, and look at how we sympathised with them during their revolution but 'nothing' changed, their attitude remained the same, what is more they criticised everything Mubarak did apart from his aggressive, unilateral, illegal, unwarranted occupation of Halayeb.
This is the here and now and has nothing to do with Muhammad Ali.
South Sudan does not occupy any part of South Sudan.
Abyei was split by the ICJ decision and the dispute is to the voting rights of the nomadic tribes.
Abyei is highly militarised but not occupied by South Sudan.
Provide evidence that Egypt proposed a referendum in Halayeb...
You can't because it never did.
Personally as a Mahdist, Israel is not my enemy, it does not occupy my land like Egypt occupies Halayeb nor has it obstructed democracy in my country or built projects for itself at the expense of my people. This is not to say that I consider Egypt to be an enemy of my country.
You of all people as an Egyptian, should know the value of Israel as you are its beneficiary and as your government affords it the highest level of rational dispute settlement in international arbitration over Taba, something that your government refuses to do with Sudan.
You should know that the Sudanese are being very patient and even our rotten government has stated that now is not the time to breach Halayeb with Egypt whilst it is under transition, this is the opposite of what Mubarak did to us.
But you should know that we will never let this go.
And if the Umma Party had ties with Israel, surely the Egyptians must have provided the precedent, you are the first at everything after all, aren't you?
"La Hawl wa la qowat Ellah Billa"
DeleteYou are turning in circles for a month now , with no evidence ...
I asked you about how many from Sudanese troops died in Halayeb "Invasion" ?? Did you ever hear about an invasion with no casualities in history?!!!
It is like the stories about Egypt that this lady was saying in the video that you sent to me... "Napoleon was not the one who broke the sphinks nose... 1959 agreement deosn't cite Egyptians to give Sudanese students scholarships here ... The succesive governments in Khartoum failed to engage in water infra-structure for poeple all over Sudan , not to let people in Marsa-matrouh have water ... And you know what, the surprise for you, Sudanese share in water according to the rotten old treaties , you did not till recent get even into 70% of its use!!!!
( Check all of the above and if you have documents to prove otherwise , please provide..No videos or interenet blogs just references to prove to yourself and your people that your bedtime stories are right)!!!!
"Inferiority Syndrom"..."Sense of entitlement" ... You should get over both...
No one is forcing the successive Egyptian governments to give this number of Sudanese Students scholarships here.
No one is forcing succesive Egyptian governments to give this number of Sudanese the residence permit here ( Millions - while we have "as you said" a population increase problem".
Why do they do that??(Try to figure out for yourself)
Sudan share of water according to the old water treaties , how much did they use from it ( in fifties - sixties - seventies -eighties - nineties), so that we can payback the damage that the "Lady" was talking about??!!
You want us to be selective and deal with the governments that " Yourself" pick?? Anyother who doesn't comply with your personal orientations should be kept aside... Funny , who from your neighbors did this and from where did you get this idea?!! I am against military coup d'etat but have to admit that our national security forces us to deal with who ever steps on the chair in Khartoum..
Unless you have documents for the above inquiries, my deepest regards to all my Sudanese brothers , I am sorry but we have really a busy schedule following the presidency roller-coaster election..
Yes an occupation is possible without casualties.
DeleteYes the gift of the 1959 Agreement, the High Dam is the world's 'worst' example of a dam with transboundary harm and no transboundary benefit and you refuse to admit that.
Yes Egypt made grave mistakes in its past dealings with Sudan and ALL the Nile Basin States and it is and your future generations will pay the price for this.
Yes you have failed to provide evidence of an Egyptian offer for a referendum over Halayeb.
Yes Taraji is a bit cooky but you did not cover half of what she said and...her views are very mainstream.
Finally in spite of my grievances with Egypt, which illegally, unilaterally occupies Halayeb unlike any of Sudan's neighbours - I am worried and saddened by the calibre of the roster of candidates that you have running for your elections.
Maybe the so called glories of the past are the only thing worth holding on to after all!
For the past month you have been repeating what the lady (Taragi) was saying about the bad effects of 1959 treaty , as if it was of no-benefit to Sudan..!!!
DeleteI have to tell you & others FACTS about this treaty, I would have understood that Sudanese could complain about 1929 or 1902 treaties but 1959 is just repeating without understanding “Others” myths!!!
1959 treaty:
Was called Egypt & Sudan Treaty, (BOTH) of them assumed that they are only owners of the Nile with all its water outcome. Ethiopia was the main looser and tried to me part of it several times …but (BOTH) countries refused..
The income of the water interest due to Aswan High damn is 22 Billion Liters: Divided 14.5 Billion Liters to Sudan & 7.5 Billion Liters to Egypt !! (Whatttttttttttttttttt , Sudan is getting from the water income due to the treaty 66% & Egypt 34%) ..
It is why Sudan was insisting on this treaty because it increases Sudan share from 4 Billion liters in 1929 treaty to have a total of 18.5 Liters ..
You don’t read & few Sudanese are like you , probably due to your unknown background and your analysis to figures..
Ethiopia is the main loser from this treaty … Ah yes , I forgot your ideology is based on the evidence that Egypt/Sudan is negative sum , while Sudan/Ethiopia is totally positive.
Today’s popup quiz :
After interconnection between Ethiopian/ Sudanese power grids, how many MVA will the Sudanese get ?? What is the power delivered price?
What is the cost of constructing diesel or gas power plants to deliver same amount on Sudanese soil?
And,…
How much was delivered from Aswan high damn at the times of its construction? What was the cost for interconnecting with Sudanese grid at that time of the Damn construction? Relevant cost of construction of Sudanese power generation plants to deliver same power needed??
Numbers will speak of themselves ..
Enjoy the best singer in Egypt
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfnwM8NvI0s )
My deepest regards to all MY Sudanese brothers,
"..Maybe the so called glories of the past are the only thing worth holding on to after all!.."
DeleteI hate the common attitude of Egyptian chauvinism , but sorry have to ..
Another quiz , when and why did the following say this ???:
Obama: We must educate our children to become like young Egyptians.
Britain's Prime Minister: We must consider teaching the Egyptian revolution in schools
Italy's Prime minister" There is nothing new in Egypt ... Egyptians are making history as usual.
Stoltenberg, Norway prime minister: Today we are all Egyptians..
Austrian President, Heinz Fisher: The people of Egypt are the greatest people on earth; and they deserve a nobel prize for peace...
A whole world of ignorants :)))
A mentality built on soundbites...how flattering.
DeleteThat's why you have people like Safwat Hegazy contesting your Presidency right?
That's why your proposed first lady is probably going to be wearing the niqab right?
That's why hundreds and thousands of you, if not millions used to tune in to watch Amr Adib right?
Re-read the Economist's last profile of Egypt during Mubarak's reign and its comparisons of Egypt and South Korea...
It's your prerogative to big yourselves up, God alone knows that this doesn't convince your closest neighbours, Nile Basin Riparians or African countries.
Your rhetorical questions on hydro-carbon fuelled thermal plants betrays ignorance of current trends, hydrocarbon production in Sudan and Ethiopia and GHG emission considerations.
Our national archives clearly show that the democratically elected civilian government's head negotiator led by Engineer Mirghani Hamza was refusing point blank to sign the 1959 Agreement under the terms it was eventually signed up to with the first military administration that was supported by Egypt, precisely because it provided 'no' benefit to Sudan compared to the material and human harm it caused.
Engineer Mirghani Hamza was replaced by a military man with no experience in the water sector, Talaat Fareed...his name says it all.
The 1959 Agreement was one of the key grievances that took people to the streets to topple the military government in 1964 in the Arabic speaking world's first popular revolution - speaking of ignorance - have you heard of it...?
Sudan had suffered from a severe deficit in electricity historically and this was true in 1958.
The 1959 Agreement allowed for the construction of the High Dam which provided Egypt with more than its demand of electricity at the time.
Negotiations on the Itaipu Dam commenced between Brazil and Paraguay in 1966, not long after 1959...
The benefits of the dam in terms of hydro-power are not monopolised by either party, but enjoyed by both with Brazil, which is a 'real' leading power paying Paraguay a tariff for the hydro-power.
This is an example of positive-sum hydro-engagement which is the exact opposite of what Egypt did to Sudan in the 1959 Agreement...
That Egypt is interested today in benefiting from Ethiopian hydropower through inter-connection is laughable and ironic.
Egypt's dealings with its supposed closest neighbour, Sudan, and the Nile Basin riparians in general are the worst example of hydro-engagement in the world, and this is what my friends and colleagues in Ethiopia, Kenya and Uganda tell me - if they screwed you guys over and continue to do so, how can we trust them?
Well they don't and they have completely side-stepped Egypt in the Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement which Sudan will sign up to when the Spring returns to Sudan.
Your feeble rhetorical questions do nothing to change the facts. that the 1959 Agreement which allowed for the construction of the High Dam is the worst example in the world of a transboundary hydro-project that caused transboundary benefit to one side 'at the expense' of the other State (Sudan).
Nasser wanted to build his dam by hook or crook and he didn't give a damn about any benefits to Sudan, and successive Egyptian regimes have followed in his footsteps.
That is part of the reason why we have decided to seek out real tangible benefit which our dear neighbour Ethiopia and its people who know us, respect us and even look like us.
Please don't put your foot in your mouth any further...
DeleteYes the world was captivated first by the Jasmine Revolution and then Egypt's, although for us Sudanese there was nothing novel (1964, 1985 - both undermined by Egyptian interference)...
But judging by some of the clown-like characters you have contesting your Presidential elections, I would tone the chauvinism down for a bit, until the dust has settled.
“But judging by some of the clown-like characters you have contesting your Presidential elections, I would tone the chauvinism down for a bit, until the dust has settled.”….. I don’t like to address any human beings to be “clown-like” , sorry , but this is how I was brought-up..
DeleteIt is democracy and we have to accept its outcome .. Specially, when you are re-forming a NATION which was kept under severe pressure for a long time..
You should be more prudent and hide your personal feelings, and just wish the best for us …:)))
First Lady wearing Niqab ,, Safwat Hegazy running for presidency , you want to speak on “OUR” behalf now and decide what we will or won’t do ?!!!
Though, personally I look for positive signs in this:
- For the first time, we don’t really know the outcome of the elections
- We have now – at least – 3 thriving powers which hardly give any one (like before) the opportunity to manipulate the people & the country.
- The population political awareness after all the dead years have increased, you would be amazed when you hear ordinary people talking in the streets..
Egypt has started a long reformation process , a lot is damaged and need to be re-shaped , it is not easy road but have to … This is time when civilization heritage pops-up and you suddenly discover that the past 5 millenniums and the civilized people who lived or came across here have left for us .. Just to get out in moments like these ( Personal experience from Tahrir Square for 16 days)
Why did those “ignorant” leaders say this ONLY referring to Egyptians? They had before Tunisia and after Libya and Syria and even long before Romania..?
A world of ignorants ..:)))
“Inferiority Syndrome” … you have to get over this….
I'm very sorry but Safwat Hegazy and Santa Claus Abu Ismail are just poor.
DeleteFor all the hype, one would have expected candidates of far superior calibre...
No one can steal Tunisia's thunder, you will be lucky if you end up like them.
It's fair to say that today Egypt is not in its best form/
I do wish you all the best, but I'm not encouraged by the calibre of candidates contesting your elections.
Itaipu Dam:“The terms of the treaty, have been the subject of widespread discontent in Paraguay. The government of President Lugo vowed to renegotiate the terms of the treaty with Brazil, which long remained hostile to any renegotiation” … The SUPER –transboundary- beneficial project that you are talking about like 1959 treaty (Which increased Sudan Share from 4 to 18.5 billion liters) turns out to have also its problems…
DeleteYou don’t want to read – Fine – but at least look to image maps to see the difference between the Nile and its newly formed reservoir and Itaipu dam project.. Why do Brazilians don’t want to re-negotiate a signed treaty, how dare they??!!!
I advise you to “Google” once a day, you should read references and then read research by various people not from your owns to be objective.. Moreover, they should not be “PAID”..!! And then make-up your mind …
You should look at the power generated from Aswan high dam in the sixties and seventies and the cost of interconnecting the power grids (Egypt/Sudan).. And the relevant cost of building a diesel power plant near consumption loads… Ah yes, I forgot that Sudan in Sixties was involved in environmental cause and refused to go for diesel generation..:)))
In management, they have the word “Feasibility” & “Finance” , numbers speak of themselves .. And please send the figures to Taragi ….
Also ,your example of international arbitration failed (http://hosted2.ap.org/ARLID/2e515285f07040df999bd6b670db791c/Article_2012-04-11-ML-Sudan-South-Sudan/id-c1ad538437af4970a22dec5c68db2773 ) … Halayeb case :is still in better status for Sudanese people , NOOO Bloodshed , NOOOO money loses , NOOOOO refuges…
Prayer for the Sudanese victims and for all of this to end…
It is about time that Sudanese leaders fight for their people interests , not for their personal or tribal glory…
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers…
Itaipu Dam:“The terms of the treaty, have been the subject of widespread discontent in Paraguay. The government of President Lugo vowed to renegotiate the terms of the treaty with Brazil, which long remained hostile to any renegotiation” … The SUPER –transboundary- beneficial project that you are talking about like 1959 treaty (Which increased Sudan Share from 4 to 18.5 billion liters) turns out to have also its problems…
DeleteYou don’t want to read – Fine – but at least look to image maps to see the difference between the Nile and its newly formed reservoir and Itaipu dam project.. Why do Brazilians don’t want to re-negotiate a signed treaty, how dare they??!!!
I advise you to “Google” once a day, you should read references and then read research by various people not from your owns to be objective.. Moreover, they should not be “PAID”..!! And then make-up your mind …
You should look at the power generated from Aswan high dam in the sixties and seventies and the cost of interconnecting the power grids (Egypt/Sudan)..
And the relevant cost of building a diesel power plant near consumption loads… Ah yes, I forgot that Sudan in Sixties was involved in environmental cause and refused to go for diesel generation!!:)))
In management they have the word “Feasibility” & “Finance” , numbers speak of themselves .. And please send the figures to Taragi ….
Also ,your example of international arbitration failed (http://hosted2.ap.org/ARLID/2e515285f07040df999bd6b670db791c/Article_2012-04-11-ML-Sudan-South-Sudan/id-c1ad538437af4970a22dec5c68db2773 ) … Halayeb case :is still in better status for Sudanese people , NOOO Bloodshed , NOOOO money loses , NOOOOO refuges…
Prayer for the Sudanese victims and for all of this to end…
It is about time that Sudanese leaders fight for their people interests , not for their personal or tribal glory…
My deepest regards to all My Sudanese brothers…
"New Middle East Project"
ReplyDeletehttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zC3aEGbhyDM/TeJYs-bY28I/AAAAAAAAANw/EXBQgqCJAg4/s1600/afj_peters_map_after.jpg
How absolutely insulting.
ReplyDeleteSudan also shares an Eastern border with Libya, yet no one in Sudan would overstep their mark and make such an intrusive statement that impinges on the sovereignty of another State!
Libya will determine its own destiny.
There is absolutely 'no' substantive change in the 'rhetoric' from official Egypt pre or post Mubarak.
Federalism is an old, established model of constitutional governance, and if the peoples of Eastern Libya want it, no power can stop them from attaining it.
Only backward, narrow-minded people think that their system is the ideal one that should be superimposed on others.
They also blame everything on conspiracies and do not have the courage to be introspective and see where they have been wrong, an attitude encapsulated in 3 posts on Aswan without a single mention of its people the Nubians.
Divided Libya is shameful for all Libyans. Europeans were able, in spite of conflicting history and different languages, to create the European union for the benefit of it's members. Now Europe collaborates to preserve membership of Greece facing troubled economy.
ReplyDeleteArabs in general, and Libyans as shown in this blog, are fostering identity crisis and fragmentation. This is a sure recipe for disastrous future. Can Egypt & Arabs have a leader like Nasser?!
Nasser who debilitated the Nubians and supported despots who suppressed minorities and mismanaged diversity in a long-term pressure cooker situation that everyone is paying the price for today?
DeleteNo thanks.
On March 2011 I warned, in a post on my blog which entitled “Errors”, from western plans to divide Libya through reviving many dormant Ethnic conflicts. The political and economic effects on Egypt would be the same imposed on Iraq neighbours right after dividing it. here is a quote that I believe is relevant to the argument.
ReplyDelete>>>>> QUOTE <<<<<
On the other hand, we still insist on repeating our strategic errors and tactical mistakes, for example by not building bridges north with Turkey and east towards Iran and India, especially after we lost our southern strategic depth by leaving the African camp wide open for Israel to make fortunes and prepare the African territory to become the next battle grounds.
And when the Libyan revolution burst out, Egypt lost a strategic momentum, it lost the occasion to enforce and regain its status within the region and also to maintain a strategically necessary strong foothold in Libya; it was sufficient to send experts to assist in training along with much needed logistics and aids to the liberated Benghazi, also to use its remaining influence in the Arab League to extract a resolution to let the Arab forces control a No Fly Zone over the battle grounds.
But obviously the instructions were different, now Libya is facing the same destiny as Iraq and Sudan: the resetting of its borders by dividing it into two or more sub-states. The end result is Egypt’s complete isolation, meaning vulnerability.
All that would make one faces the bitter fact that we’re not allowed to take initiatives!
Why?
Simple, BECAUSE WE ARE IN DEBT.
>>>>> UNQUOTE <<<<<
Ahmed El Nahas
http://haalitheoracle.blogspot.com
after we lost our southern strategic depth by leaving the African camp wide open for Israel to make fortunes and prepare the African territory to become the next battle grounds
DeleteIndeed - I wonder how many Egyptians think long 'and hard' about how and why this came about...?
Attitude is everything.
Before Egypt goes around and preaching to Libya, it should solve it's own overwhelming problems.
ReplyDeleteI should point out that before the arrival of the colonialists,Egypt was the only true country in the region whereas the rest of the Arab countries were made up of several tribal and ethnic regions.
So Egypt is supposed to be tribally and ethnically homogenous?
DeleteCongrats for one of the best blogs in arab world ..
ReplyDeleteI worked in oil exploration in Libya by the end of the twenty century : Everyone is repeating that East Libya has more oil !! It is true that under this 3 zones map ,Fazan territory is producing less oil now but its potiential is higher and we had a lot of exploration jobs there south of a city called Ubari south of Sabha . Experts in the field know this and they know that Gaddafi was producing oil from the east part of Libya because it is easier , if you can get hold of any estimate for Libya reserves you will get what i am saying .. Needles to remind everyone here ( I don't know why Egyptian officials are still silent ) , Egypt should discuss its rights according to international law for some of the oil wells near the border ( under production for some years now ) .
Regards
The problem nay not be Federalism as such, but how and why it is chosen. Iraq is really 3 competing & opposing groups. I don't know how it will ever be resolved. Without a dictator, its hard to see the three groups cooperating except on the basis that they are all muslim which doesn't seem to be enough to stop the mutual violence. Iran is supposed to have the most influence there, much more than the US. Maliki is Tehrans choice. They would never back a Sunni no matter how competent he was. Remember Harriri.
ReplyDeleteWhatever Iran is doing is not working. If Iraq falls apart it will be due to their policies. Ten years is enough time for Iran to be deemed to have failed to bring stability there, if they were ever really interested in that. Hegemony and instability are their forte. A peaceful ME doesn't suit their outlook as an exploding Superpower outstripping everyone in piety, wisdom, science,arts, social freedom , space exploration, computer programming & religous democracy. Or so the Holy Emperor (shadow of God on earth) would claim.
Federal Libya? If the Libyans can't unite what hope for Arabs in general to work for common betterment. I think Libya will be fine but like Egypt & Tunisia it will have to make its own mistakes with no one to blame.
Any rational mind that ponders this statement would realise that it's nothing but عويل which translates into 'wailing'.
ReplyDeleteI'm not entirely sure who the statement addresses, the Libyans or whether it's simply of internal consumption.
Countries that exercise 'real' leadership like Brazil or Turkey stand back and are emulated by other countries in their region.
In Brazil's case, Chavez's rival bases his platforms on a pacific form of social fairness that is modelled on what Lula did in Brazil...
In Turkey's case, Tunisia's Islamists have taken the ruling AKP's experience with the constitutional separation of powers fully on board.
What does Egypt have to offer in terms of constitutionalism?
(With all due respect to Egyptians).
One needs to look in in order to break out, in the words of the late Dr Garang, the ram shuffles back, retracing its steps in order to burst forward.
I'm sorry to say it but the statement by the Egyptian Foreign Minister is at best unfortunate and most definitely pathetic.
@AnonymousMar 7, 2012 07:57 PM "Now Europe collaborates to preserve membership of Greece facing troubled economy." You have not been following events closely. Most European people want the deadbeat nation of socialist moochers kicked out of the EU before the bureaucrats flush any more money down the Greek shit hole.
ReplyDeleteDear Zeinobia, As an outside observer, i.e., someone not from the Middle East, I think you sometimes don't take the Nubian or Sudanese people seriously enough. Your ideas about them are one-dimensional, stereotyped and unrealistic. It's a common thing that Egyptians do even if they are nice people like you. You assume they should be grateful and friendly and overlook injustices done to them. Dark-skinned people are routinely and casually portrayed in your media as bellhops or objects of humor. Maybe you need a little consciousness-raising. Perhaps some of your Sudanese and Nubian readers can suggest reading material that would be helpful, and promote true friendship and understanding, as well as suggest real solutions that the new Egyptian government should take to redress their legitimate historical grievances. What do you think? I'm just trying to be helpful as a disinterested outsider with no preconceptions. I have a suggestion, too. Why not write a blog post detailing the contributions of Nubians and Sudanese to MENA culture? Isn't that a good idea? It would be a start, anyway, at setting the tone going forward.
ReplyDeleteIf only...
DeleteBut no that would be fomenting sedition and dialectic federalism and intellectual pluralism!
"Talk is cheap, the real stuff takes place on the ground." ... If we apply this , Halayib is under Egypt's sovereignty now ... It is mentalities like you who don't want to solve the problem. Halayib SHOULD be solved through NEGOTIATIONS.
ReplyDeleteAswan high damn transboundary effects should be solved through NEGOTIATIONS , letting " real stuff on the ground" the factor is in benefit for the strongest army even when “the Spring returns to Sudan” !!!
Ethiopia engaged several times inside southern Sudanese borders whether you like it or not.
Sudan governments since independence adopted a malicious role towards its neighbors : Chad - Egypt - Ethiopia/Eriteria , you name it ... This is why I kept insisting on talking about Egypt/Sudan because the black history is known for all. Kids keep talking about whose father is strongest , grown-ups talk about what I can offer you and what I will get in return.
For your information , my background is electrical power generation engineering with a master of business , I have little information about Hydro- Power ;) From technical point of view , Ethiopia dams should NOT be a point of worry for us . The topography of Ethiopia prevent them from keeping large volume of water like what happened in the Aswan dam case, they will suffer severe floods . I can even tell you that these dams will – after two years from filling their reservoirs- be capable of better irrigation control throughout the river. It is the Israeli presence which makes them paranoiac here.
Still : Regards ,
Khaled.ahmed@lycos.com
> It is the Israeli presence which makes them paranoiac here.
DeleteDont you think that the Ethiopians are perfectly capable of knowing by themselves what's best for them?
Complete ineptness at cognitive discussion...
DeleteWe have been insisting on the same line of treatment that Egypt afforded Israel over Taba - international arbitration, and after bringing up illegitimate Muhammad Ali and obsolete maps, he now accuses us of being against negotiations...
Dispute settlement, namely internaitonal arbitration takes place when experts are brought in to solve divergent views on an issue...
We will 'never, ever, ever' accept Egypt's unilateral, illegal, military occupation of Halayeb, and when the Spring returns to Sudan a whole new type of engagement will happen between our countries.
There's nothing to negotiate in over 50 years of exploitation and harm, the Upstream Nile States have signed the new Nile Basin Cooperative Framework Agreement without Egypt, and we the Sudanese people support it strongly, and when the Spring returns to Sudan we will join a country which offers us benefits in transboundary, water engagement, Ethiopia, and we will also sign it.
Let the Chadians, Eritreans and Ethiopians speak for themselves about Sudan, and I bet he doesn't know any people from those three countries.
Failure to mention Gaddafi's Libyan role in Chad is simply a sign of ignorance.
Sudan enjoys organic, fraternal relations with all three of those States and even Eritrea and Ethiopia who are technically at war do not mind the fact that Sudan enjoys good relations with both.
What is more Sudan's territory is not occupied by the armies of any of those States.
The accusation that Sudan has negatively interfered in Egypt's internal affairs is another indication of ignorance.
What was Sudan's position towards Egypt from 1956-1989?
And what was Egypt's position towards Sudan since 1820...???
Egypt supported military take-overs and undermined democratic, civilian regimes for its own interests - thankfully Egypt's influence has faded to such an extent that this will never, ever be possible again.
Ethiopia never invaded Sudan.
Egypt today illegally, militarily occupies a part of Sudan since 1995...
And how dare he protest at Ethiopian-Israeli relations when Egypt provides Israel with gas and are engaged in a number of economic and strategic and military agreements with it including the QIZ?!
It is precisely this double-standard that puts Ethiopians and Sudanese off of even engaging with Egyptians.
Keep stuck in the 18th Century and we and the Ethiopians will continue to do our thing.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/03/201232681712769133.html
ReplyDeleteEnough said.