And our diplomats in Israel do not like what the blonde bombshell said , well excuse screw Refaeli , who is she again other than being the girlfriend of Leonardo DiCaprio !!?? Why do our diplomats complain about her statements !!?? Do not they have confidence in Egypt as tourist attraction !!?
I do not think our tourism will be affected by what Refaeli says or thinks about Egypt.
By the way Bar did not see the transfer of camels from the south to their market in Giza in the street , I once saw it at the University street in Giza late night and it was wonderful regardless of what you may think , I wish I had a camera on that day.
Technorati Tags: Bar Refaeli,Egypt,Tourism,Leonardo DiCaprio,Economy,Israel,diplomats,Media,Society,Culture
Bingo , ya bent belady :)
ReplyDeleteAnother taste of your own medicine?
ReplyDeleteSudanese diplomats complained when Egypt's classiest celebrities such as Amr Adib and Hala Sidky gave their insulting verdicts on Sudan's suitability to host a FIFA World Cup qualifier.
And the damage done persists...
@Zol:Nas 3aiza ganaza we teshba3 feeha latm fe3lan. Some sudanese also commented on their own amazement as to why Sudan was chosen and why your gov agreed so, its not only Egyptians. If you consider Amr Adeeb and Hala Sidky to be classy thats your issue :D
ReplyDelete@Z: A) shes a no body, who cares and why was she asked this question?
B) Shes entitled to her opinion, wont make our country less attractive. Sm ppl like Egypt some dnt, same applies to all countries and cities.
C)Her boyfriend, the one she used to get famous is the one who chose Egypt, reported in papers as a place her dreamt to visit.
D) Some think they live in better countries but they dnt even see their own poor. She comes from a stolen identity type of entity, has she seen how the original owners live thanks to the likes of her and her father?!
E) Shes entitled to her opinion but her chosen words were clearly meant to insult and for that I do hope she is banned form entry again to the country she hates so much.
F) Fact is Egypt has been doing so well in tourism, despite empty warnings by Israel Israeli tourists still prefer to come to our side. Nt that it makes me happy, they are knwn to be mostly cheap tourists, nt the best quality of tourists ud want to attract.
@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to say I don't understand your Egyptian proverbs as much you don't understand ours...
'If you consider Amr Adeeb and Hala Sidky to be classy thats your issue'
Do you not understand sarcasm at all...??!
I guess it does entail a certain level of intelligence for that sort of subtlety to register.
Interesting point about Bar Rafaeli being barred from visiting Egypt.
The popular consensus in Sudan is that Amr Adib (your opposition Shadow Minister of Information - you must be so proud!) should also be declared persona non grata.
And which Sudanese were amazed at Sudan being chosen to host that match - bearing in mind that the final of the African Clubs Championships was held in the same stadium recently?
Can you offer any evidence?
Please do.
Or are you the same Anonymous who always makes empty, unsubstantiated statements...
@Zol , with all respect , why u camping this blog if u dont like what u read ?
ReplyDeleteim part Sudanese BTW.
The Israelis are still living in their fantasia and myth world , that they are the oasis of democracy and civilization in the area .
ReplyDelete'Transporting camels on trucks'.....Yaiii Ya mami
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteBecause I can and because 'we' have a message and an objective that we would like to get through.
So where's the evidence of the Sudanese being shocked at having been chosen to host the 2010 qualifier?
Really?
Part Sudanese?
From where?
So are you insinuating you know Sudanese proverbs?
Do you understand:
الحمرة الأباها المهدي؟
Bar Refali will harm tourism and sharks not ?
ReplyDeleteIf Egypt can (try but not succeed) to harm Israeli tourism by shooting rockets at us we can "harm" Egyptian tourism by using a model. At least we don't use violent methods like the Arabs do. And she is absolutelly right: Egypt, just as all Arab countries, IS primitive!
ReplyDelete@IZJ and can you please inform us when Egypt tried to harm your tourism by shooting rockets !!??
ReplyDelete@IZJ,"At least we don't use violent methods like the Arabs do"
ReplyDeletehahahahahahahahahahhahhh loooooooooooooooool
Egypt fired rockets at Israel, specifically Eilat, on April 22, 2010
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_attacks_on_Eilat_and_Aqaba#April_22.2C_2010_attack
And on August 2, 2010
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3930118,00.html
@IZJ , I think these rockets were launched from Jordan not from Egypt according to our security forces my dear.
ReplyDeleteI do not trust Ynet nor Wikipedia which depends on subjective contributions
Sudanese jingoists and Zionist idiots, seems your blog is attracting all kinds of trolls.
ReplyDelete@IZJ: your so-called man made entity is all about terror and violence and stealing so, cut the crap. How about the Egy soldiers getting killed by Israeli snippers at the boarders every now and then. You are lucky some coward like the current regime are in power bec mark my words if we had legit regime u and ur Zionist company wld ve knwn how to respect others.
ReplyDeleteIf Egypt is so primitive, why did you steal our lands before and cried when kicked out of it? why do we get thousands of filthy Israelis every yr visiting? Have u been to the Gulf? You are nothing but an idiot and well of course, wt else to expect from someone who is a Zionist.
@Zol: Your such a sick person. As I said before, its not my job to fetch things for u and your crazy wagon of Sudanese haters who come here.
ReplyDeleteI read an article online at a Sudanese newspaper and the same question was directed to my by some Sudanese friends. Wow, for the person claiming to knw all about Egypt and the Egyptians even better than them, u dnt understand a proverb, if u didnt how did u understand it was a prover?!! U knw wt it means and u knw wt ppl like u r called.
Amr adeeb matters only to idiots like you and no hes not the info minister in the shadow gov, he was given a position by el wafd as for the shadow gov its not settled yet. I do understand sarcasm but u clearly give Amr Adeeb too much importance, despite several comments here trying to tell u for us hes not that influential or important but well, u knw us better than we knw ourselves, not. If u guys dnt want him to come then u have every right to do so, wts ur point exactly? no one will cry if u do that or even care.
Last but not least, Im not the person saying he/she is half Sudanese but its funny how u r just so nt accepting of any words bearing some sense as long as they dnt Amen ur hateful line of thinking. The person asked a logical question and btw wt u and your group do hear doesnt make u win supporters, u r nothing but hateful and aggressive and that takes the attention from ut ever cause u claim to be bringing awareness to here.
Again, hijacking another post.
The difference between you and I is that even if I can 'read' something - that doesn't mean I understand it - and I'm not bigoted enough to claim that I do...
ReplyDeleteI 'read' the Egyptian proverb - but I didn't understand it - just like the way you didn't understand the Sudanese proverb I posted...
Black-face is racist 'everywhere' apart from in Egypt...
A cabinet shadow Minister is a public figure to be taken seriously 'everywhere' apart from Egypt...
There's a trend there and it sure as heck isn't logical.
Name-calling will get 'you' nowhere - having the courage to accept other opinions even if they contradict your own and to admit to problems and wrong-doing will get people somewhere.
Being called jingoists by Egyptians - ironically funny!
ReplyDeleteToo bad we don't fit the negative, dumb stereotype you love to propogate in your media, huh?
يادي الميديا ياعم ارحمونا بقى من التفاهه دي - الافلام اللى جيبالك نقطه انا حتى مش عارف انت قصدك مين . لكن متاكد انها افلام هابطه ، . اللبنانى يعملوه فافى و الخليجى ماشى ورا رقاصه و عندهم المصري بيصوره نصاب او حرامى ماحدش عامل اهميه للافلام التعبانه دى و الشعوب لازم تكوت اكبر من التفاهات دى و تكون عندها ثقه فى نفسها و تتعالى على الهبل دول - روح شوف القنوات الجزائيريه و لا صحافتهم صابحه نايمه يشتموا فى مصر و لا حد مهتم - طز قعر جزمه انما انتم فقدتم العقلانيه و يظهر الحوار معكم مستحيل و الموصوع مش فيلم و لا عمرو اديب و لكن عند و غباوه و من له الكلمه الاخيره، يا عم الفيلم اللى يزعلك ما تكملوش و قول لصحابك ما يتفرجوش عليه.
ReplyDeleteالامريكان دايما يجيبوا العرب على انهم متخلفين و يظهر عندهم حق ، جتكم نيله كلكم على بعضكم من سودانين على مصريين على توانسه .. شمتوا فينا العدو
أولا - نحن لسنا عرب بالمفهوم المتعاهد عندكم و كل مشاكلنا من عدم وعينا للهوية السودانوية الأفروعربية و ما أذكى رئيس السنغال السابق سنغور الذي تحسر على السودان قائلا كان ممكن أن يكونوا أحسن الأفارقة فاختاروا أن يكونوا أسوأ العرب
ReplyDeleteالسودان والهوية الأفروعربية
http://www.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1723EF9C-6138-44FE-AA64-25162EA995E5.htm?GoogleStatID=1
ثانيا - القضية ليست فيلم أو مسلسل على حدا و لكن نمط عمره أكثر من نصف قرن لم يتغير - و جيراننا في ايثيوبيا و كينيا لا يشوهون الشخصية السودانية كما تفعلون - بل الانجليز مجدوا الامام المهدي في انتاج سينمائي عام 1966 و قد كان عدوهم الدود - ما الصعب في المطالبة بتغير هذا النمط القبيح المسئ الضار و أكرر - ما الذي ينمعكم من المطالبة بوقف النمطية العنصرية القبيحة المسيئة الضارة في الاعلام المصري و أكرر - في الاعلام المصري؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
ثالثا - مشاكل مصر الاعلامية مع الجزائر لا تخصنا و لكن أحداث تصفيات كأس العالم بين مصر و الجزائر و التي لم يكن السودان شريك فيها من الأساس الا بعد اساءة المتكررة البليغة الغير مبرهنة من قبل رواد الاعلام و الفن في مصر للسودان تخفي مشاكل جوهرية:
عدم قدرة أو عدم المام على معنى التنافس الرياضي بروح رياضية
العجز تماما في ما يخص احترام الآخر
و الميل للكبر باسم الوطن و كم سمعنا و قرأنا مقولة الكثير من المصريين بأنهم أي كمصريون أحسن منهم
رابعا - تبرير الخطيئة بالاستناد على تفشيها في بعض النماذج و هذا باطل
خامسا - لن نترك هذا الموضوع حتى تتحملوا مسؤلية هذا النمط الاعلامي المضر - نراكم نشطون فيما تهوى أنفسكم من قضايا و تمارسون الانتقائية فشهداؤكم أبطال و سهداؤنا الذين عذبوا حتى الموت لمعارضتهم لاحتلال القوات المصرية الغشيم لحلايب لا يستحقون حتى أن يذكروا و نرى قضيتنا عادلة و لا مساومة في المطالبة بالاحترام و هذا يبدأ بتصفية العنصرية الموجهة ضدنا في اعلامكم - الاعلام المصري
لا يا خواجه ذل ، انت لم تفهم قصدى و ده مش تبرير للخطاء بتفشيها ده عشان تفهم ان المءلسه مش بالذات مقصود بها السودانيين و لن فى مثل هذه الافلام التعبانه تكون السخريه من كل الجنسيات و مش السودانيين هم بس المعنيين و كمان مش بس فى مصر و و الاعلام الدول العربيه التانيه بيتنؤروه على المصريين كمان ماحدش بيهتم لانه شئ عبيط ما يستاهلش و للعلم بقى انا مره شفت حلقه من طاش ما طاش و الممثل المشهور بتاعهم عامل سودانى و صابغ وشه اسود و عامل حاجه هابله ، اشمعنى ماحدش من السودانيين صعد الموضوع ده فى السعوديه و لا عشان مصر الحيطه المايله و نفس الممثل مره عمل لبنانى دور لفظ مقدرش اقوله يعنى زي ما يكون مخنث و لا اللبنانين علقوا و لا اهتموا - مسلسل اهبل
ReplyDeleteايه نمط دى ؟ افلام زمان كانت تعكس واقع المجتمع ايام زمان لما كان السفرجيه من الجنوب فى بيوت الباشوات و لا اعتقد انهم كانوا يقصدوا السؤدانيين بل مصريين من النوبه و ده كان الواقع ايامها و ماهوش عنصريه لان بالفعل معظم الخدم عند الطبقه الارستقراطيه كانو من النوبه و مش السودان و
كانوا يظهروهم فى صورتهم الحقيقيه امناء و يكتمون اسرار البيت من الفضايح و ناس زى الفل
يبدو ان فى شعور بالبانوريا عندك و لا حاجه و لكن المخزى فى الامر ان لما هبله صهونيه تنعى مصر ان الخواجات السوادنيين يشمتوا و الله لو حد قال نفس الكلام على السوادن انا ازعل و احس بمراره لان لو حد قال السودان دوله بدائيه و فى نفسى كان قلال نفس الكلام على بلدى و لكن اخص عليكم تشمتوا بدل ما تزعل كان الكلام على السودان ، عيب عليك
و اللى يقرا كلامك يتخيل ان مفيش للناس فى مصر شغله و لا مشغله غير يعيبوا فى الاعلام و الناس ماورهاش حاجه غير الفرجه على التلفزيون - كفايه بقى افتراء و عبط و نرجسيه و تخلف
من المضحك أن أسمى خواجة من قبل فرد في مجتمع يرى نفسه متمدن و يسخر من مظاهر تراثنا من عمامة و جلابية و توب و مجتمعه يعشق كل ما يأتي من الأبيض المتوسط بينما مجتمعي مبني على الثورة المهدية ااخالدة التي حاربت الخواجة و الجواد المصري الذي دخل أرض السودان على ظهره
ReplyDeleteبمعارضتنا لأسلوب أو موقف مصري نصبح خواجات و يصبح الجزائريون عجم و غجر و أنتم يستحيل أن تخطئوا
لما هبله صهونيه تنعى مصر ان الخواجات السوادنيين يشمتوا و الله لو حد قال نفس الكلام على السوادن انا ازعل و احس بمراره لان لو حد قال السودان دوله بدائيه و فى نفسى كان قلال نفس الكلام على بلدى و لكن اخص عليكم تشمتوا بدل ما تزعل كان الكلام على السودان ، عيب عليك
ماذا فعلتم عندما أساء صفوة الاعلام و الفن في مصر للسودان بعبارات أقبح من وصفنا بالبدائية بعد مباراة الجزائر؟
الم تصدقوهم؟
هل استنكرتم ما فعلوه؟
أم غضيتم البصر كما تفعلون مع سائر الأمور التي لا تهواها أنفسكم كاحتلال حلايب الغير شرعي و سجن و تعذيب أعيان الادارة الأهلية في حلايب السودانيون من قبل قواتكم الأمنية
في الأيام التي تلت المباراة استنكر كل اهل الصحافة في السودان هذا التصرف من قبل صفوة اعلام مصر الذي قاد لأزمة دبلماسية عارضة - اما أن تكونوا معصومين من الخطايا أو أن كل السودانيون فاقدي الصواب
نحن بصدى تجميع و ترتيب مقاطع من الأفلام المصرية التي يصور فيها الشخصية السودانية و كل ما هو أسمر أو
أسود و كل ما هو افريقي بطريقة سلبية نمطية عنصرية غير مقبولة و وجدنا أن النمط ذاته يستمر الى يومنا هذا فبينما كانت السخرية من الشخصية السودانية النوبية و معظم النوبا سودانيون توسعت دائرة السخرية الى جنسيات أخرى نحن لسنا معنيين بها
قد أسلفت بأن وجود الأعذار للخططيئة بتفشيها باطل و غير مقبول و هذا بالظبط ما حاولت أن تبرر به النمط المشين و فشلت
و بما يخص طاش ما طاش لا مجال لمقارنة ادوار ناصر القصبي التي يلعب فيها دور رجل سوداني لأنه يدرس الأدوار و لذلك أعجب السودانيون بشخصية أبو فاطنة في طاش ما طاش بما فيه من اتقان للهجة و المصطلحات السودانية و مواقف يبرز فيها ملامح هذه الشخصية بطريقة ذكية تطغى على بعض السلوك الكوميدي المبالغ و شكرا على الملاحظة سوف ندرج كيفية تصوير الشخصية السودانية في طاش ما طاش من ضمن مجموعتنا لبرهنة الاختلافات
و ما أعجب أن تصف بلادك بالحائط القصير بينما هذا هو الدور النمطي الذي ترانا به مصر الدولة و من وراءها رعاياها
للمعلوية بعد الغزو البريطاني المصري للسودان في عام 1899 سجن من لم يعدم من آل المهدي في مصر و أغلبهم توفوا و أمراء المهدية الأشاوس - أخذوا ليعملوا كحراس الطبقة الأرستقراطية في مصر - هل نستطيع أن نتخيل الاعلام الياباني يصور الكوريين الذين أخذوا ليعملوا غصبا في اليابان أثناء احتلال اليابان لكوريا - هل نستطيع أن نتخيل أن يصورهم الاعلام الياباني بطريقة نمطية سلبية و عنصرية؟؟؟
لا طبعا - و لكن كل العالم لا يعرف شئ - و السودانيون مهووسون - و أنتم على صواب
فاقد الشئ لا يعطيه - أن توجهني بما هو عيب يحتم عليك معرفة قيمة الاحترام و من الواضح وضوح الشمس أنك لا تعي هذه القيمة الأخلاقية
لن نسكت لوجود اسرائيليين - و ما ترونه شماتة تذكرة - كما تسيؤا معاملة الناس - سيستطيع قوم أن يسئ معاملتكم
اهه - ادى السودان
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKUn51xTiZg
و اللبنانى
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIrg5FDxTlU
و ادى المصريه مطلعها بنت لا مؤاحذه
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9176657214831019915#
نمسك بقى فى فيلم و لا مسلسل و نقول ده عمل ده كده ليه
لو تشوف بقى الانجليز بيتناءوروه على باقى الاوربيين ازاى فالفرنساوى عندهم رجل ديوس و يسمتع بمشاركة زوجته و الالمانى غبى و الايطالى نصاب و الاسكتلندى سكرى و دايما مخمور و الايرلندى ساذج لدرجة البلاهه و ياسلام على الهولندى فهو داعر و يحب قصار السن و لو فى فرنسا فالانجليزى عندهم دميم عديم اللباقه - اهتموا هما بالنمطيه دى؟ و لاحد بيهمه . بلاش ندى التفاهات اكبر من حجمها فنعطيها اهميه و هى لا تساوى
اصحاب العقول فى نعيم
@Sudanese Optimist: actually, u and the bunch of boozoos who come here fit that stereotype just perfect. Thank God I have African and Sudanese friends and i know the crap you write here is mostly that.
ReplyDeleteFor me, the Anon writing in Arabic replied to you sufficiently, KAFA WA WAFFA, so, no need to add more. Good luck living w ur hate :)
All these argumentative comments over a stupid broad's conclusion for dissing a whole country over camels being transported on trucks?
ReplyDeleteThis is why you will never have peace in the ME.
و مرة أخرى حاولت تبريب الخطيئة ببرهان وجودها و لا اقول تفشيها في بعض الانتاج الاعلامي في بعض الدول - و هذا للمرة الثالثة باطل
ReplyDeleteفي أوروبا التي قضيت فيها نصف حياتي يوجد بعض النمطية في بعض البرامج الغير لبقة - لكن هذا ليس نمط الكوميديا عندهم - لديهم افلام مشتركة و يعرفون بعض و ثقافات بعض أكثر من ما يعرف المصريون السودانيون
قبل عدد من السنين كتب السفير الالماني في لندن خطاب في جريدة محترمة يعارض فيها عدد افلام الحرب التي تبثها قنوات بريطانيا في العطلة - اذا الشكوى من النمطية موجود و لا يستنكر الا من من عديمي البصيرة - و في المكسيك هنالك روابط منظمات مجتمع مدني تشكوا التعاطي مع المكسيكيين و قد نجحوا في سحب بعض الدعايات المشينة
Anonymous - where did you meet your African and Sudanese friends? At Mustafa Mahmoud...?
Tragi Mustafa: Sudan-Egypt relations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6dT73uifvQ
رفض لإهانات الإعلام المصري للسودان والسودانيين
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTkJUQSfCQA
Good luck trying to build a democratic society what with your inability to accept opposing views.
يا استاذ انت الى عملت نفسك خواجه لما قلت احنا مش عرب بالمفهوم اللى احنا نعرفه و بالمفهوم اللى احنا نعرفه لو انت مش عربى تبقى خواجه. و انا وصفنك بالخواجه لانك لم ترضي بالعربى )بالمفهوم بتعنا و لونى مش فاهم عربى ليها كام مفهوم (
ReplyDeleteعمامة ايه و جلابيه نسخر منها انت بترهتل . اذا كان نص الشعب المصري بجالبيه و عمامه ، انت ماحدش ابدا عزمك على جلابيه بارتى؟
افلام زمان بتعكس وفتها و اديك قلت كان فيه حراس من السودان يعن لما كانوا يصوروا فيلم فى الثلاثينات الربيعينيات و الخمسينات يغيروا الحقيقه علشان بعد ستين سنه سعادتك ما تزعلش؟ و لما تكون افلام تاريخيه عن هذه الحقبه يغيروا التاريخ علشان الخوه السودانين اللى مش عرب )بمفهومنا) مايزعلوش - نمطية ايه اللى بتتكلم عليها بالضبط - كانوا حراس فبيطلعوا حراس ، عايزهم يطلعوا ضباط مثلا - ايه المناقشه الساذجه دى
الظاهر ان انت مشفتش افلام مصري قديمه و بتسمع كلام و بتكرره - دول كانوا كومبرس يعنى مافيش دور حقيقى به حوار علشان تبقى شخصيه نمطيه من غيره و ل و فيه افلام ليست على هواك - نعمل ايه نحرق ارشيف السينما العربيه عشان ترتاح مثلا وايه حكاية الغزو البريطانى المصرى اللى اكتر من مية سنه عايز ايه بالضبط حتحاسب عليه مين يعنى ؟- ده هوس فعلا
مين صفوة الاعلام دول - عمرو اديب ؟ احمد شوبير؟ دول صفوه فى مخيلتك انت و من قال لك ان حد صدقهم انت عملت احصائيه و النتيجه كانت ان الناس صدقتهم و لا ده شئ اخر فى مخيلتك برضه
طبعا اوجهك بما هو عيب و لا انت مش عارف انه عيب ما قيل من شماته و
عيب اكبر ان تتهمنى
بعدم الاحترام بالرغم من انى شديد الالتزام معك و لا تتعدى حدود اللياقه
هذه المدونه لفتاه مصريه تناقش مواضيع مصريه بحته - و اغلب رواده من المصريين يعنى لما تحب تقول رايمك تلتزم الادب و تبطل تجريح ، انتم من تفرضون انفسكم هنا و فى كم موضوع حتى ما لا يختص ببلدكم من بعيد او قريب - تجحمون انفسكم بشكل استفزازي قمئ بكثير من التجريح ، هل ترى اى مصري يجحم نفسه فى مدونات سودانيه بلا داعى
لو انت عنك مشكله مع الاعلام المصري او الشعب المصري او تاريخ مر عليه قرن من الزمن فلتنشاء مدونتك الخاصه و سيناقشك الناس هناك و يصبح من حقك ان تخرتل و تشتم براحتك و لكن فى الغالب لن يكترث لك احد و ربما يكون ذلك سبب هلولكم علينا لجذب الانتباه كالطفل المشاكس
فيه فرق بين تقبل اراء المعارضه فيما يخصنا و ناس جايه تبجح و تنكش بلا هدف - مش كده و لا ايه
روح يا حبيبي اعمل ندون جمع كل الافلام المصري و ربنا يوفقك
أشكرك كل الشكر لأنك لخصت المشكلة السودانية المصرية بمقولتك
ReplyDeleteانت الى عملت نفسك خواجه لما قلت احنا مش عرب بالمفهوم اللى احنا نعرفه و بالمفهوم اللى احنا نعرفه لو انت مش عربى تبقى خواجه.
يا أخي لا تستخدموا معاييركم الخاصة لتحليل الآخر - السودان كله ليس قطر عربي كمصر الجمهورية العربية و كل أهل السودان ليسوا عرب كأهل الجزيرة العربية فقد انصهرنا اجتماعيا و ثقافيا و بيئيا بواقعنا الافريقي و أصبحنا سودانويين آفروعرب و اذا كنت متطلع على الأدب السوداني و التراث و الثقافة السودانية لعرفت هذا بنفسك
أنا لست خواجة و لست عربي بالمفهوم المتعاهد في مصر - أنا سوداني آفروعربي
و رضيت أم أبيت نظراتنا للتمدن تختلف و تركيبتكم الاجتماعية الطبقية تختلف من تركيبتنا الاجتماعية و الزي الوطني السوداني مقبول في دول الخليج أكثر من مصر و أنا شاهد على ذلك
و رجوعا للأفلام القديمة - النمطية لا تحتاج الى حوار بل بالعكس و الأفلام المصرية القديمة تصور الشخصية النوبية السودانية بأنها غبية ساذجة مضحكة و هذا يجرح شعور السودانيين
و ردا على سؤالك هل يصوروا النوبا ظباط - للمعلومية ربما ليس في مصر و لكن في السودان النوبا ظباط و أطباء و سفراء و أسياد عشائر و حتى رؤساء دولة
و ما أتى بعد الحقبة القديمة من الأفلام و الى يومنا هذا من هنيدي و عادل امام و أحمد حلمي أسوأ لأن الزمن تغير و لكن النمطية بقت
و عن اساءات الاعلام المصري للسودان - هل لديك دليل واحد على معارضتكم لها؟
الذي يبرر ما لا يبرر و ما يسئ للآخر و الذي يكيل بمكيالين ليس كفأ بأن يذكر الآخرون بما هو عيب
أجحموا أنفسكم في مدوناتنا لعلنا نخرج بمعرفة آراء
بعضنا البعض
ان للمدونة حق منع نشر أراءنا فلتفعل ذلك ان شاءت و لكننا لن نسمط و سنعلق في كل موضوع يخص مياه النيل و حلايب المحتلة و اثيوبيا الشقيقة و المعتقلين السياسيين الذين تذكرهم المدونة دون فرز - الا اذا كانوا سودانيين و معارضين للاحتلال المصري
كنا نأمل في صفحة جديدة مع جيل جديد من المصريين و لكن الظاهر أن التعنت و ضيق السعة الثقافية يورثان ربما مثل الحكم عندكم
سنظل نذكر التاريخ و غزو محمد علي الغشيم و مهديتنا المجيدة التي شكلت واقعنا في السودان بقدر ما تذكرون خلق الجيش المصري للسودان و كأنه كان فضاء من قبل ذلك و جدلية استقلالنا منكم الذي تتفهونه و هنا البرهان
أصدقائي من جنوب السودان غضبوا و اشمأزوا لضرب هذا المعلق المصري - قنديل - ثقافتهم و هويتهم و نضالهم بعرض الحائط و مقولته أن أمريكا لا تطيع شم رائحة الجنوبيين فسألني و هل تطيق شم رائحة فلاحي مصر؟
هل خذل العرب السودان؟
http://aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/50595125-9AD3-4CAB-A1E1-C1BBD7FA3E44.htm
اه/ لما يبقى يجى موضوع يخصك زي حلايب الخ ابقى اتكلم - شايف الموضوع اللى ف وق ده الى بقالك يومين بترغى و تمط فيه - يخصك؟
ReplyDeleteجى تبجح فيه بمنتهى الصفاقه و انت مالكش لازمه ، صح ؟
يا حبيبى اتكلم ب
س بالذوق و الادب و دون التهكم و علشان نبقى صرحا انتوا بتقولوش اى حاجه جديده و عاملين زى الاسطوانه المشروخه - نفس الكلام و نفس البجاحه - حتى الروابط هى هى
لما يبقى عندك شئ جديد ابقى اتكرم علينا بيه و فى مكانه يبتاع المكيالين - مكيالين ايه دول - هو حد قالك ان هجوم العلام ده صحيح؟ انت برضوه عايش في التهيات بتعتك - لوحدك بدماغك - عايز دليل ازاى يعنى افهم ؟ عريضه ممضيه زى بتاعت البرادعى ؟ و حضرتك عايز كام امضاء ؟
علشان تبقى موضوعى و ما تتعبش نفسك- بدال اى اساءه صدرت من القنوات الخاصه و مش من ماسبيرو يبقى متتوقعش اى حاجه - الحكومه غير مسؤوله عن القنوات الخاصه ولن تعتذر بالنيابه عنهم و ده شئ بديهى، عندك مشكله مع اوربيت او الحياه او المحور يبقى تطلب من اداراه القنوات دى نفسها و تطالب السفير بتاعك فى القاهره مش تيجى على المدونات تستهزاء بالناس و تسب فى اوطانهم ، انت فاكر حد فينا عمرو اديب و لا بس بتفش غلك فى اى حد مصرى و خلاص
يلي عايز صفحة جديدة مع جيل جديد ما يجيش يبجح و يسب فيهم و يقول لده انت جاهل و للتانى انت مابتفهمش حاجه و انا متابع تعليقاتك انت بالذات منذ فتره و امسك اعصابى و اتجنب اى نقاش يخص السودان لانكم متبرمجين على نوته واحده - للسب و التهكم حتى الذى يحاول النقاش معكم بلطف ، باسلوبك العقيم و الغير مهذب طبعا لا تتوقع اى صفحات جديده
شوف كلام يا متربى يا مؤدب -"و لكن الظاهر أن التعنت و ضيق السعة الثقافية يورثان ربما مثل الحكم عندكم" ده اسلوب عايز الناس تتحاور بيه معاك - انت بستبهل ؟ الطريقه الدينءه فى الاسلوب و يقولك انتو مش بتوع صفحه جديده - اتعلم تكلم الناس بذوق من غير ماتذم فيهم و تتهكم بوضاعه و ساعتها الناس تقبل معاك النقاش ىامتحضر يبتاع بلاد بره.
و لو عندك مشكله شخصيه مع عمرو اديب او اى اعلامى تانى - راسلهم و اشتهم زى ما اانت عايز بس مش كل ما يكون عندك حاجه وجعاك تيجي تسب هنا و تستهزاء بالقراء - روح اتعالج فى حته تانيه
@Zol, "ما أذكى رئيس السنغال السابق سنغور الذي تحسر على السودان قائلا كان ممكن أن يكونوا أحسن الأفارقة فاختاروا أن يكونوا أسوأ العرب"
ReplyDeleteFor God's sake how can you consider this statement as a "smart statement"?
To me his statement is very racist and self demeaning. He is basically saying that Arabs are better than Africans since if A is better than B and B is better than C then A is better than C. Do you get it?
Another flaw in his statement is about "choosing one's cultural identity". Cultural identity is a very complex subject. One's identity is comprised of a myriad of inner qualities and outer representations of self. Choosing of one’s identity is a multi-layered experience, consciously and unconsciously influenced by countless factors.
@Zol, Before complaining about the unproven Egyptian atrocities in Halayeb, you need to watch this appalling video . Warning this is a very disturbing video.
ReplyDeleteYes Hazem it is an extremely appalling video - the incident happened in February 2010 and is apparently 'under investigation' - there are twin sit-ins in Omdurman and Khartoum later today.
ReplyDeleteSo what point were you trying to make?
Interesting point about identity.
ReplyDeletePresident Senghor's statement is smart because it reflects the tragedy of Sudanese Arabness whereby 'some' Northern Sudanese identify themselves as Arabs whilst the Arabs in the Levantine and other places consider them to be sub-class Arabs, blacks (we are all mixed after all) 3abeed etc...
Lebanon opposed Sudan joining the useless Arab League back in the 50's and when Sudan's title used to be Sudan, Darfur and Kordofan many Arab dignitaries enquired about 'what' Darfur and Kordofan were...
He's not saying that Arabs are better than Africans but that Arabs are racist whilst Africans co-exist with a myriad of ethnicities in, not a salad bowl but a melting pot.
Let's not forget that President Senghor witnessed the ill-fated and defunct Pan-Arabism which is 'absolutely' not suitable for a nation like Sudan which is mixed and far more culturally diverse than other Arab States, such as Egypt for example.
There is a certain chauvinism in Nasserite Pan-Arabism that imposes the Arabic identity and culture and its alleged supremacy - on other cultural and linguistic popular manifestations.
Our Kenyan and Ethiopian brothers don't disparage our national character the way the Egyptian media does - and we never hear cases of racial abuse or violence in Kenya or Ethiopia like we do from time to time in Egypt and Lebanon...
So that's where Senghor is coming from - Africa is big enough for all, whereas 'the Arab world' whatever that means is nebulous and controversial for Sudan - and time has proven President Senghor to be correct.
Personally I can't negate the fact that I am an Arab linguistically and ethnically, even though I'm part Nubian - but Arabism does absolutely nothing to inspire me, unlike Africa which I belong to.
الدليل تعاطي الاعلام المصري المكتوب للاهانات مثلا
ReplyDeleteعندما تجدون الشجاعة لقبول و مواجهة المشاكل التي تخص الآخر و تأتي من جانبكم - سنستطيع أن نمضي الى الأمام و لكن التهرب و دفن الرؤس تحت الرمال لن يجدو و نفسنا طويل
الحكومه غير مسؤوله عن القنوات الخاصه ولن تعتذر بالنيابه عنهم و ده شئ بديهى
حكومتكم اعتذرت ضمنيا بالفعل بارسالها وزير الخارجية و عمر سليمان لشكر السودان على استضافته للمباراة - تنشطون في ما تهوى أنفسكم من مواضيع و لكن عندما يخص الموضوع السودان تتجاهلون الأمر و عندما نريكم استطلاع وطني قبل الانتخابات أحد أسئلته هل يجب أن تعدل اتفاقية 59 و الغالبية سوطت نعم - تشكون التدخلات الأجنبية و البعبع الاسرائيلي - أنتم لديكم مسؤلية تجاه كيفية معاملة اعلامكم للآخر و الكيفية التي تتعاطون أنتم مع الآخر و مع شؤون الآخر لأن لكل فعل ردة فعل
و هجومكم علينا يسمى في السودان - ضربني و بكى سبقني و اشتكى - ما هو دنئ هو تجاهلكم المتعمد للسودانيين المعتقلين في مصر لمعارضتهم لاحتلال حلايب الغير شرعي و الشخص الذي له ذرة انسانية لن يفرق بين الضحايا نسبة لجنسيتهم أو الجهة التي يقاومون احتلالها - و سنواصل التعليق - اما ان نمنع و اما الحوار
The link between the video and Halayeb is what exactly?
ReplyDeleteHalayeb is under illegal military occupation.
It is virtually an open air prison.
People are not allowed to enter it and leave it naturally.
Sudanese troops are still stationed there and have refused to leave.
Halayeb's civil society leaders have been campaigning for the restitution of Sudanese sovereignty so that they can resume their lives normally - as a result many of them have been incarcerated in Egyptian prisons, without trials for periods up to seven years - and they still languish in prison.
3 of Halayeb's civil society leaders have died whilst under Egyptian incarceration.
The most prominent one Sheikh Hasaay was rushed to a hospital for an emergency operation from prison - he passed away and it was discovered that he had been tortured.
تتكام كأن كل معلق مصري هنا لبق - الهجوم خير وسيلة للدفاع و لكنها وسيلة ضعيفة
ReplyDeleteالهجوم و مطالبتنا بالسمط ليست الطريقة الموضوعية للتعاطي مع القضايا
الحوار فن و علم و أدب و التجاهل و الهجوم سيزيدنا تصميم
@Zol: actually his comment means you failed in becoming active among Arabs. Stop blaming others for your own failures, so is it all of the Arabs, the Egyptians and also the Lebanese to blame now?!
ReplyDeleteWhatever happened/is happening in Halayeb cant be compared to what Sudanese themselves have done against each other. What did any of those barking at us here did to those abused by their own government?what have you done to your own refugees flooding Egypt and going as far as seeking refuge in Israel?what have you done to the president who is a wanted criminal and is one of the main factors for your up coming split? NOTHING. All you know is to attack others and blame them for your problems.
Choosing to change your identity from Arabs to Africans or even Martians wont solve your problems bec you chose to be divided not unified and before others did, you chose to discriminate amongst yourselves. So funny that you forgot how many lives were lost thanks to violence and wars in several African countries bec of tribal or racial differences.
If u have an issue w private channels, sue them but you wont bec you are all about barking and insulting others.
@ Anonymous - no his comment doesn't mean that - his statement lays the blame on the 'Sudanese' for choosing the wrong path between the two.
ReplyDeleteRacism manifests itself in certain parts of the Arabic speaking world - including in Egypt's media - and no one can deny that.
Sudan's problems are 'Sudan's problems' - Halayeb's illegal military occupation is purely of 'exogenous' making...
With regards to the refugees - we are completely against the Four Freedoms Agreement that allows Egyptians to enter Sudan without visas and 'hypothetically' the inverse to happen.
We would like the next freely elected democratic government to rescind that agreement because Egypt is already over-populated and black folk don't get treated very well there.
It's best if mutual visitors go through the usual process in order to be issued with a visa.
And the refugees are free to seek refuge in Israel if they so wish - Israel is Egypt's strategic partner right?
Or are you proposing incarcerating them in an open air jail like what the Egyptian forces have done to Halayeb...
I think I speak for all of us when we say we don't support our President, nor did we vote for him in the last elections - that's what we have done.
We don't like him partly because he fought in Egypt's war against Israel and didn't learn the lesson and become best friends with Israel - if he had he would have remained a President for life - like yours.
The 'identity crisis' is at the root of the Southern problem - and which part of 'the Sudanese people support the right of the peoples of South Sudan to self-determination' did you not understand..?
Even after the split - the North will continue to remain 'not' typically Arab...
A lot of us have realised the 'depth' as opposed to the superficiality of our identity.
Many of us choose to 'not' identify ourselves as 'Arab' - the 'Arabic speaking culture' is one of the important components that make up the Sudanese mosaic - those were the words of Dr Garang.
Besides, what commonalities does a Northern Sudanese have with someone from the Levant as opposed to someone from Ethiopia?
A Sudanese group has looked into the possibility of suing Amr Adib's channel but the Egyptian legal system was very opaque on the issues of locus standi and forum non conveniens.
Pan-Arabism and those Sudanese who foolishly believed in it is one of the reasons for Sudan's problems.
Thank God Pan-Arabism is dead and has been replaced with Pan-Africanism from whence I get my name...
يا استاذ طاهر ، زميلك لا يعطى اى شخص الفرصه ليكون لبق معه و بالتالى هذا رد فعل لهجومه و ليس العكس - و فى اول رد له يلمح للذى يحاوره بانه -اى المحاور قليل الذكاء - وده ب يشبلى بناس قاعده على قهوه فى امان الله و فجاه يدخل عليهم واحد
ReplyDeleteفاتح صدره و ماسك شومه و هو يصرخ:" يا ولاد .."
ان اعلم ان الانترنت قدينسى البعض كيف يحاور بذكاء قالهجوم و
السب و الاسقاط المبتذل قد يبدو اسهل - فدائما انصح من تسيطر عليهم العاطفه ان يتخيل من يحاوره و كانه جالس معه بالفعل او تخيل نفسك فى الطرف المقابل و كيف سيكون ردة فعلك، الهدوء و الموده هى افضل طريقه لايصال فكرك
This is a suggestive reading to those who may get overwhelmed or tend to show anger in online discussionس:
Don't rile up people for the sake of riling them up:
Of course, if your goal is to anger people, you're probably not reading this article on forum netiquette. In any case, it's always necessary to be polite. Even if you're stating your true beliefs, people
will accuse you of being a troll (someone who will write inflammatory posts just to get attention) if you write your posts in a provocative way. People might also think that you're an alt (someone already on the forum who created a new account to be a troll).
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1152990/forum_netiquette_for_newbies_pg3.html?cat=15
Please check his/her previous comments on all topics[which will be kinda hard to track as s/he are almost always hijacking topics that are not even remotely related to Sudanese issues) always insulting other commentators right from the beginning, you will understand what I mean..
Other Sudanese commentators are a delight to converse with like Optimist and Africanist(I assume Sudanese but not sure). I had one of the most educative and fruitful discussions with Optimst on Haleb and we agree on most issues and matters that we couldn't see eye-to-eye we just agreed to disagree.. no insults, no innuendos.. no name calling as debates should be naturally.
Aficanst, I'm afraid you are overlooking a small but quite an important point regarding the Refugees crossing into Sinai. In Zone C which is a buffer demilitarised zone adjacent to isreal's border, there are no proper border guards in this area and is patrolled by Police[central security] conscripts. They have no training &do not know how to deal with refugees.. Egypt has to secure this zone from trespassers according to the Peace treaty terms, in other words they are practically protecting isreal. The conscripts as any Egyptian will tell you, just follow orders without questions. They are given orders to shoot to kill anyone trying to enter isreal illegally and that's well before the refugee crisis, that is to say they are not targeting african asylum seekers per se but anyone attempting to wander in that area risks being killed even an Egyptian. Egypt is also wary about giving a trigger-happy isreal ta pretence to invade that area so they might be overreacting out of fear .. you probably know that Sinai in general doesnt have enough troops for a quick first response in case of an east-bound invasion and I am sure you are aware of the many accusations made by isreali cabinet mebers that Egypt isn't doing it's part in securing the zone and being lax in tackling the alleged arm smuggling from Sinai.
On 2 occasions the Egyptians have asked for amends to the peace treaty that should allow more troops in Sinai, specifically infantry battalions and proper border guard personnel but IDF top officers were very clear on that matter and instantly rejected anu suggestions for more troops in Sinai. isreal has now begun building a fence/wall with surveillance towers extending all along the border a la U.S/Mexico border. The Egyptian government was indifferent about that wall but I'm sure it's more than welcome. Perhaps after it's completion less refugees will be able to cross into isreal but it should save a lot of lives. Obviously the best solution is for a stable South Sudan where the refugees can return to their homes safely.
Another thing, I think you should sue this fucktard Adeeb and more importantly the Orbit network but it will need official representation from the embassey[I think I'm no expert on legal matters but anything with diplomatic ties is more likely to add pressure on courts] ..even if it goes nowhere there will be still good outcome.
ReplyDelete1. generates enough media coverage, exposes the fuckatrd- although career-wise I think it's over for him [he has lost the Mubaraks blessing]
2- other networks will think twice about who to put infront of the camera.
3- a lesson to be taught, things will no longer be the same..
@Africanist: Well Im sure u fail to see the insult in what he said and im also sure u rnt God to know for sure wt he meant for real. For me and for several others who read what you wrote, this comment is nothing but an insult to you.
ReplyDeleteYou are so preoccupied w labels and we are trying to tell you that the problem is nt w the label but well feel free to think that switching to Im all African, will solve your problems. Also, you know as coming from Northern Sudan you are in effect not all African and also not viewed as such by those in the South for e.g.
Im not sure who checked our legal system but he cant be someone who is familiar with the system, we just had a landmark ruling that allowed the claimant to effectively bar the respondents programs bec of insults to the claimant. So, plz go ahead and sue adeeb or the entire group of private channels if you are for real care for this issue. The station is in Egypt and the broadcasting is received in Sudan, so no problems in suing in Egypt.
Stop avoiding the question Ive asked several times to the bunch of you who come here, what have you done to your own ppl?
You have issues w Bashir for fighting in October 1973, well, that proves who short sighted you are and how much you hate our country. Egypt wasnt fighting its own war only and that is why several other countries sent some minimal troops. Also, its an honour for him to fight in a war meant to restore a land that was taken away. As for your love for Israel, well they have no care or respect for you, but of course you know how to bark on us here but fail to comment on the terrible treatment Sudanese who end up get and how they are treated as dogs.
Oh no, you cant just excuse your own lack of action towards the injustices and violence among each other and also your lack of action towards a criminal president by just saying we didnt vote for him. How dare you demand us to be responsible for decisions taken by ppl we didnt elect and openly objected to and had ppl pay for that with their lives but excuse yourself by simply saying oh his actions arent on me. Well, we have a for life president and you dont and you have more freedom as one of you claimed here before, so show us what you can do. But of course, all the barking you do here is all you can do, you know how to insult others and be pleased with any bad thing that happens to us and preach to us but in reality you do nothing, you lost your unity, you abused others in your country so much that they dnt want to be one country with you any more and kept a president who is one factor in the split but you dare to tell us what to write about, which victims and causes to defend and even how we shld act and think!! So, stop acting all high and might you are actually a reflection of all the bad traits you accused us of being but of course you dnt even have the ability to look within.
What have we done to our own people?
ReplyDeleteWe are all pan-Africanists and want change in our country and campaign through legally sanctioned means with the aid of local NGO's amongst participating in other activities...
I think I can speak for us all when we say we all 'categorically' do not hate Egypt.
We hate the way the Egyptian media portrays us,
We hate the illegal military occupation by Egypt of Halayeb,
We hate official Egypt's arrogance in rejecting international arbitration in the same way it did with Israel over the Taba dispute...
Whilst we understand Egypt's water-paranoia we hate the way our issues are glossed over by 'Sudan specialists' and how our uniqueness is lost under banners of 'Arabism' - it would be very handy for Egypt if Sudan were a centralised Arab nation similar to itself - but it isn't...
We hate the general Egyptian ignorance regarding:
how unfair the 1959 Agreement and the Aswan Dam is perceived to be in Sudan,
the Mahdist revolution,
the independence struggle of the people of South Sudan. We often get told that other peoples' ignorance of us is our fault for not being proactive enough, we counter that by saying that in this day and age travel and communication is easier than ever before and the alleged lack of pro-activity has not stopped Western specialists from coming and really getting to know Sudan with an open mind, with no water strings attached...
We hate the arrogance of many Egyptian specialists who see Egypt as the alpha and the omega and pan-Arabism as some kind of higher, noble objective and who analyse Sudan (erroneously) in those parameters,
We also hate the 'tolerance' of the Egyptian people to racism and black-face in your media - it is quite simply 'not funny' and 'unacceptable' and this is not a governmental issue - 'you' the people are the market and those that follow and approve or disapprove - so there are no sound parallels of comparison between that and a President (ours) whose legitimacy is based on flawed elections...
Please let's not talk about the honour of fighting to restore a land that was taken away, since Egypt's forces now occupy a land that was forcibly taken away!
Israel definitely has issues - but it doesn't condone or promote black-face in its media like Egypt!!
For the 'last time' we support the self-determination of the peoples of South Sudan!
We don't view their secession as a problem because we're not water paranoid!
Please do some reading on South Sudan - I recommend Justice Abel Alier's books.
The Sudanese opposition recognised the right of South Sudan to self-determination in Asmara in 1995 and Khartoum followed suit in 1997 - it was either war or the referendum and the Sudanese people chose the referendum.
It is mildly insulting when you trivialise the issue of the historical grievances of South Sudan into the person of our current President. It is much more complex than one man, it is the historical promise of a peoples.
We have issues in Sudan, but we are honest enough to talk about them - unlike you.
@ the first Anonymous - it takes two to tango - you're right that people should exercise self-restraint.
ReplyDeleteIt gets quite confusing though with the number of comments made anonymously - some are made by people who seem to be level-headed and rational like yourself and others...well I best not say anything.
Everything you've said about Egypt's borders are true.
It's a difficult situation to be in and much as Israel officially states that it doesn't want refugees, it grooms them and uses them as political tools and the Darfuri Sudan Liberation Movement has an office in Israel...
There's too much asymmetry between Sudan and Egypt - you're too crowded and we have different needs, trade partners etc...
That's why the issue of the freedom of movement is a controversial one and one that (coupled with freedom of employment) we think currently benefits Egypt more than Sudan, so we would like to see it reversed.
FYI we're all Sudanese.
The most shocking and disappointing thing to us was the refusal of Zeinobia to comment on racism in Egypt - until an Egyptian came along and confirmed yes.
Granted, trolling is annoying - but others have stated and I reiterate that we will comment on anything related to Sudan, South Sudan, Ethiopia, the Nile Basin, illegal military occupation, Halayeb and political detainees.
@ the second anonymous - we are all Africans in North Sudan - we are a mixed race people and culture - Nubia is both black and African...
People in the South don't consider us to be non-Africans, some of them call us 'bastards' due to our mixed racial make-up = )
I'm not sure how much you know about Northern Sudanese culture, folklore etc..but we're very African - the Southerners like President Senghor see us as taking sides with 'Arabism' whatever that means over Africanism - and they are right - this has been the historical folly of our leaders.
The Sudanese Embassy refused to get involved in any legal action after Soliman and the FM's visit...and to the best of my knowledge the plaintiffs were told that the court would not consider the complaint as it involved an international incident with public policy connotations - basically everything happened in the passionate spur of the moment and is done and dusted - so much for the independence of the judiciary!
I will be big enough to admit that perhaps blaming the big group for the mistakes of a smaller group are wrong - but you should also understand the extreme and raw offence felt by 'all' the Sudanese in light of what Adeeb and company said.
Now that we have all vented off.
ReplyDeleteyeah, the racism thing is disgusting, we had discussion about it Optimist and I. It's undeniable.. back then I mentioned that it's the ridicule type racism and not the extreme type at least widespread...not that that's alright and just as ugly but that was actually meant for the Egyptians to read not the Sudanese because we, Egyptians have a misconception of racism in that it can only be in the beating up of someone cause of their race...otherwise that is not racism and simply 'personal preference'. That's the problem actually in that we in general do not understand the vast concept of racism and Egyptians find it very offending to be called racists and fact is even the most racist Egyptians do no perceive themselves as such, it's kinda sad and funny at the same time..like a blind person who thinks he can see like Mahmood abd Aziz in that film[forgot its name]. The racists ones actually don't know they are because they have absolutely no understanfing of the wide meaning of racism and its practices and just like blind Mahmood aziz in the film got enraged when someone called him blind, some of us act the same way...it's simply impossible for us to be racists.
Here are some examples of racism common in Egyptian society that people don't normally acknowledge[this part is mostly meant for Egyptians to read]
like a girl or matchmaker telling the would-be-groom's mum and promoting the bride: "..and she's baida" like that's a privilege for extra points?.. maybe just maybe the groom might prefer a different complexion..like say.. BLACK? God forbid..no! but actually some men may not like the baida and the hilarious part is the baida is just a lighter complexion or olive skin.
Or the groom's mum:".. she's samra but pretty" now now..how nice , this is just like some muslims saying:"he's Christian but kind"..lovely, contrary to other christians who are evil, this one is actually kind and unlike the other samaras who should be ugly, this girl is actually pretty..now that's inticing
Those may same very daft examples but they are actually proof of some racist behaviour but it should give you a general idea..calling a black girl you don't know on the street 'ya samara' is not flirting and she probably won't appreciate it.
On the other hand, there are also more extreme types of racism, those are not widespread..like breaking into a refugee house, beating up the mother and raping a young girl.. did this happen in Egypt?! unfortunately yes.. within the fabric of our society are some very very sick people. What is even more saddening is this is new to our society and things like that couldn;t have happened in the past. The picture seems to be more grim but maybe there's hope for change because although there is a new wave of racism that is unprecedented like those gang bangers who view Africans as game and take advantage of their vulnerability and misery, on the other hand the educated and cultured folk who were less informed about racism in the past; now do have better understanding and more awareness for those issues. However there are several signs of malaises in our society.
Egyptians in general do not like outsiders to discuss those 'signs' or refer to them but it's not precisely burying their heads in the sand..that's not correct either. They like to deal with it alone, in other words it's dirty laundry..we know it's our dirty laundry and we will clean it in our own way at our time. We are very very sensitive towards the dirty laundry, and nothing should hang on the laundry line unless it's impeccable white. That's a problem where non-Egyptians may see us as aloof or unaware or unconcerned..it's actually not true, we just prefer to deal with it on our own termsin a discreet way even if we can't fix it than ask for a helping hand, it isn't really burying your head in the sand but more like sweeping dust under the rug ..they are aware of that dust and will try to clean it when nobody is there to see the dust[although everybody knows there is dust] and this is mostly why there's a new nationlistic trend of what appears to be superiority complex as what you've mentioned an alpha and the hero of Arabs when in fact it's the sign of the opposite..of a retreat, this is a natural reaction of a nation knows that it's slipping away surpassed in diplomacy and role playing by countries like Qatar-no offense intended but I'm trying to explain how some may feel about Qatar emergence in the region and on the international scene- they hit back by 'we are the champions'. It;s like a deeply wounded bull that refuses to show any signs of weaknesses by standing up aggressively and shaking its head at the matador one last time.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Haleyb, I may have views different from Egyptians and Sudanese alike..although I personally prefer a referendum rather than arbitration and we all know what that means. But either the referendum or arbitration will have the same outcome..only with the referendum it will help heal the festering wound much faster than arbitration which will have sceptics claiming it was unfair to us and siding with Sudan but a referendum means that's what the people want, deal with it and this is better for both countries to get over it. The halyeb is also a tricky issue because I believe it has nothing to do the foffshore oil or a matter of national pride. If it was for oil, something would have been signed up a decade ago..I believe[and I could be wrong] that Mr. Mubarak has made it his personal quest and I tell you why, you have really pissed off the shithead and he's a taurus you know so not just a regular shithead but a very stubborn one and I will tell you why. Pre the Ethiopia assisination attempt in 95/96?[can't remember] hardly anyone mentioned Haleyb on the news, hardly nyone wrote about it..it was no issue, not long after that..maybe a year or so, halyeb was all over the news and Egyptian soverignty articles went on and on and halyeb became a regular guest on weather reports when halyeb was never mentioned before suddenly it became important dor us to know the forecast for Halyeb and ashyteem- as if anyone travels there or maybe for the residents there although it didn't seem all that important for them to know their local forecast from Egyptian TV before. That's why I told Optimist they made a grave mistake when they failed to pop his head. I don't condone violence[except maybe in Mubarak's case] but if you gotta do something, for the love of God do it right.. now the shithead travelled to AdisAbaba in 2 planes..the regular presidential 76 and a militray Hercules carrier..that wasn't classified it takes no brainer he took his personal armoured vehicle along..meaning someone could have cooked a nice plastic explosive as a road side package instead of that usless ambush- I recently read that taking the car was Omar Sillyman's advice and since then he became his favourite trustee.. but anyway that's why I think halyeb became a very important national issue and personally I don't think it will ever be resolved with shithead alive so maybe it will be resolved soon{fingers crossed)
ReplyDeleteI am afriad there are no remedies for the water-paranoia, even with better resources and better land management..it will always be there, it's simply a matter of life and death[almost quite literally]
IL KITKAT!!
@achtung: point isnt about the actual issues any more. Point is, we keep on getting the same broken record of insults and preaching from the same Sudanese commentators, sometimes with a + 1 or 2 appearing every now and then. None of us commenting back condone racism but most replies were arguing the extent and awareness of those committing it and the public. Also, no one appreciates the "shamata" tones whenever there is a crisis we are facing and I personally cldnt believe how cld the same ppl who claim to be here talking about those beaten or taken in from Halayieb or refugees poop all over posts dealing w torture victims!
ReplyDeleteWe tried several times to tell them we do not elect those running our affairs, they claim they had more freedom which clearly only existing in their heads and they excuse themselves from actions by their president and officials by saying we didnt elect them but when we point out the same is true for us, we are told we are condoning this and that.
Now, for me, the only issue individuals might have an impact on right now is the so-called insults to Sudanese by private stations. So, for me, my advice since they take this issue as very serious and still feel insulted that they should for a change be active, nothing in our laws or judicial system forbids them from filing a law suite and as an Egyptian Ill be all for it bec Id love to see more precedents drawn up on such issues. So, let us see if they will keep on barking or will truly show that they do care for this cause and arent all talk.
Last but not least, your recount of Halayieb events isnt accurate, there are several leading foreign law books discussing the matter and tracing it from the time boarder lines were drawn until now and the issue isnt oil, despite this being an important point for all but it starts with the boarder lines. Im all for asking the ppl of halayieb to choose which country they would like to belong to. My personal take is that the Sudanese and the Egyptian interest by officials and activist inst really coming from a desire to take care of the ppl there but to exploit their cause and their resources with no real development happening there, when it was with the Sudanese and little now that it is controlled by the Egyptians.
As for the replies by Sudanese wtsoever, if u were all good we wldnt have had to deal w refugees from ur country. Like it or not, believe it or not, most ppl do care for wt happens in Sudan be it bec of interests or feelings of common or shared destiny and you are no God to question or attest to what ppl really feel. Its really sad to see you coming here with your insults while its thanks to your ppls own actions you are loosing a country that cldve had so much potential, wtever label u stick on it be it Arab or African doesnt matter, it matters to you bec u are racist but you dont realise that for me I never cared for which label ppl put on me or my country my realities are Im part of Africa, part of the Arab nation and even part of Asia, w connections to the West through our Northern sea and connections to the old world through our history and present situation, I was brought up to appreciate this diversity and not waste my time finding a label to stick on my head or let my self live based on the label others have stuck on me, that is sadly something you arent clearly able to do. Egypt is no longer strong, your country is splitting much to your happiness and you are now in a position to have your country set up the way you want it to be away from our so-called influence so, show us what you will do, less talk and more action.
Thank you achtung for posting as achtung.
ReplyDeleteTo the last Anonymous poster I have nothing more to say.
Enough has been said about what 'the public' can do towards tackling the problems of racism towards the Sudanese in the Egyptian media - the Egyptian 'people' being the target group of the Egyptian media...
I'm sorry to say this but you have no depth or sense of perspective that would allow you to appreciate the cultural intricacies of Sudan and the Sudanese - ignorance may very well be bliss in your case.
So achtung I agree with everything you've said apart from wishing that the attack on your President succeeded.
You make a very good point about airing the dirty laundry and one that I hadn't thought about.
We're different in that sense in Sudan, maybe sometimes we can be too negative to the extent of apathy.
Anyway not wanting to air your dirty laundry in this particular sense is not helpful - being as mature as the South Koreans and Japanese in addressing their differences is.
It is ludicrous when Egyptians do all of the following to us:
speak of us in moth-eaten, unrealistic flowery historical terms,
lump us in the same unrealistic water situation as them and praise our 'common stance'
laugh at us through black-face and other means in their media
remain ignorant about us and disregard our history in particular the Mahdiyya and independence and disregard our cultural diversity.
The FIFA 2010 World Cup reflected all of these contradictions where Sudan 'was chosen' by Egypt to host, this was 'accepted' by FIFA, Sudan bent over backwards to make the event a success, FIFA praised Sudan for this effort with just 72 hours notice and...when Egypt lost the Egyptian media lashed out at Sudan in a deeply insulting manner!
With regards to Halayeb - the conflict flared up in the 50's but I believe that it was because Nasser did not like the fact that Sudan's was a civilian, democratically elected government - he sent Egyptian troops to prevent voter registration in Halayeb and was sharply, privately rebuked by as-seyyid Ali Al-Mirghani - a Sudanese independence figure and Sufi leader - at the same time the Mahdist Umma Party's maverick Muhammad Ahmad Al-Mahjoub managed to sucessfully get a complaint against Egypt in the Security Council.
Nasser withdrew - but then he got his back when the army took over power in November 1958 and the 'competent' water negotiating team was replaced with 'incompetents' who signed the 1959 Agreement a year into the military administration's take-over of power.
During Sadat's time there is talk of the dispute flaring up but I don't genuinely believe it and there is no concrete evidence of the agreement - Sudanese sovereignty and Egyptian natural resource rights...
Unfortunately I think what you said about Halayeb being President Mubarak's personal vendetta is true.
What he and his advisors don't realise is the extent to which they've poisoned Sudanese-Egyptian relations.
We know the peoples of Halayeb - they are fiercely independent and are nomadic - in a referendum they would chose to join the bulk of their kinfolk who reside in...Sudan.
In any case the fact that the civil society leaders of Halayeb who used to occupy Sudanese governmental posts have been detained and tortured is deeply distressing and insulting.
The current situation in Halayeb is untenable and unsustainable and unacceptable and open air prisons cannot be condoned.
The presence of people like achtung gives me a little bit of optimism - however business as usual should not be the order of the day.
We have been ignored and mismatched under defunct pan-Arab slogans for too long - the time to engage like mature, autonomous neighbours is now.
It would have been better if it was successful, he went nuts after and as you said Sudanese/Egyptians relations really suffered..not just that he lashed on Islamiscts hard even moderate non-military Britherhood.. I believe the Hastempsut temple massacre was a retaliation by Gamaat Islamische because of how they were prosecuted, they are no angels but many innocent Islmaists were killed.
ReplyDeleteIt was a very bold attempt on foreign soil, if you're not at least 99% certain then you shouldn't go ahead. Not only relations with Sudan have suffered after but with Ethiopia and even Uganda as well. I am not naiiva to claim that had he been killed a better man would have took over but at least relations with African countries would not have suffered like that and I don't really believe of a succession crisis or lack of a proper successor would send the country in turmoil when shithead decides to kick the bucket..it's not like they/Mubaraks/NDP morons are doing a good job running the country.. it's already too fucked up no one can fair worse. Some attribute the Mubarak reign to be a good time because of many infrastructures projects..most are shambles that a little hail storm in Alexandria floods the city and exposes its guts. Successful infrastructure projects..like water, sewage etc were built by EU/Japanese companies with USAid money or with hefty loans from the world bank or EU, they hardly mention those facts in papers etc but of course they can't forget to remind us of who to be grateful to by sticking an ugly billboard of a smiling cow on every project asif he personally worked on it or päid for it from his personal Swiss bank accounts.
You are completely right that ignoring to discuss and properly acknowledge racism issues or other ailments will not fix them if not make them worse but that's were the Government should actually take over not NGO not society, certain issues society cannot handle or solve orthe media alone, either they don't have the means or understanding or ashamed or can't really have a good prespective of how it affects the future while it can appear harmless now.. that's not new n Egypt, many things have been left unresolved and ignored for a long time has had massive impact of how society is shaped like the muSLIM/cHristian relations especially in upper Egypt and how the Government inignoring those issues playa a role itself. The same applies with racism issues annd relations with Sudan, properly understanding the Sudanese culture.. knowing that mutual respect and proper investments in both countries that benefits both people is the only way to move forward like for example a week ago there was a programme on Jazeera[Itigae moakes-opposite direction] and Abdhalem Qandeel from Kaifia was talking about a new South Sudan is another Zionist state[meaning a madeup country just to control the Arab world and particularly Egypt], and I was for the love of God where have been for the last 50 years or even the last 10 years..this coming from supposedly an intellect, no doubt he is pan-arab Nasserite but at least you should have a better understanding of that issue, it's not that simple.
That's why some issues can ony be tackled by the Government itself, only the state has the methods and push it forward .. only the state can force better education curriculum in schools instead of thewacko rubbish[we and Sudan are one].
Yes, the time for proper dialogue is now but it will not happen with shithead in power and nutter Bashir in Khartoum, he is too 'attached' to the Egyptian Government. Those regimes have to be replaced first, those 2 puppets have to go and not necessarily Democratic change..even a dictator with a little bit of sense can promote better relations between the 2 countries, properly democratically elected heads of states is no doubt better but what I mean to say that those 2 are idiots and they can't instigate a good dialogue that truly represent the needs for the people..they have to go.
@ Anonymous, since when were you 'ever' able to address any one of the issues objectively without responding with with hair-brained questions?
ReplyDelete@ Achtung I like the dying raging bull analogy.
@Sudanese Optimist: this is not about me or personally about any of those responding to you. Stop avoiding to answer our legit questions? Again, put your words to action and show us how you will defend your cause by action not words and stop demanding us to do things you know we are not in a position to execute since you also in no position to force different decisions that those taken by your officials. Im afraid to say, mutual relations wont be better if mentalities like yours were the ones involved.
ReplyDeleteachtung you really do seem to understand Sudanese affairs more than anyone else here.
ReplyDeleteI still disagree with political assassinations on principle - they're not a part of Sudan's political background.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Although Muhammad Ali's ill-fated invasion in 1820 set off a downward spiral that set in motion Sudan's conflicts - I wouldn't want any Sudanese person to do the same to Egypt or any other nation.
Unfortunately relations between Sudan and Egypt have not been healthy during our democratic periods...due to the reflection of the public will in governmental policy - rejecting Egypt's chauvinism...
I really wonder how relations will progress as successive generations of Egyptians know less and less about Sudan - Gamal Mubarak first visited Sudan to watch Egypt lose against Algeria - not to discuss economics...
Omer Suliman is in charge of Sudanese affairs - and can it be said that he's succeeded in any way?
Egypt was absent at Machakos, Naivasha and Nairobi - according to the wish of the Sudanese ruling parties...
That's why I don't solely blame governments - the Egyptian educated class should know better - Qandeel says 'the Americans can't stand the smell of the Southern Sudanese' in his Al-Jazeera debate!
This is a highly provocative statement!
Can the Americans stand the smell of Egyptian farmers..?
He also completely disregards the history and cultural, linguistic and ethnic make-up of South Sudan!
And he's an 'expert'!!!
Respect breeds respect and recognition understanding...
You're right to point out the Mubarak and Bashir are odd allies - Bashir plays the Nile card and Egypt's food security which Mubarak responds to - Mubarak on the other hand is under intense pressure to distance himself from Bashir due to the ICC arrest warrant...and Bashir produced the straw that broke the camel's back when he re-stated Sudan's sovereignty over Halayeb in April...
Those are some of the cables I'd like to see on wikileaks.
The only neighbouring country with which we have issues pertaining to the media and misrepresentation is Egypt - not Ethiopia, Eritrea or even Chad...
The ball is in the court of the Egyptians to think about the issues we have highlighted and about how to address them...
Dudu
ReplyDeleteو الذي يتكلم عن الشماتة
القائم بالاعمال السوداني
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjbiRJ7xhWc
Sudanese commentator