I can't find a reason why Israel is so scared that any Arab or Islamic country would own a nuclear program !! Seriously I do not find a good reason to all what the Israelis are doing whether from leading the world against Iran or attacking Egypt and KSA for their announcement that they would start a peaceful nuclear program.
The Israeli officials with my all respect are fooling their people by creating a fear factor just like the American administration when they promote that the Arabs and Muslims should not have a nuclear program not even a nuclear weapon.
It is silly because no one in the world ,the West of course dares to open his mouth about the Israeli Nuclear program , the oldest program in the middle east which started as far as I know since 1949 not to mention that Israel is considered the sixth country in the world to develop Nuclear weapons , it does not stop at Nuclear Peaceful energy I am afraid . Some wise people would say it was a crazy time of Nuclear energy in 1950s and 1960s and Israel needed protection from Nasser , well this is not an excuse when we speak about nuclear weapons and I do not know what or how they were thinking back in 1950s and 1960s whether Israel or the West which helped Israel to build the Dimona Nuclear reactor as fast as they could whether with the help of France , I once read that their nuclear experiments were done in the Algerian desert or by the scientific help and financial donations of Jews around the world as if it were a holy mission . Israel got atomic bombs since the 1960s with the help of Britain and no body objected and said that it was a threat to the international Peace and a threat to its neighbours in the region in the same way Iran is looked to currently in the same region.
That Nuclear Program of Israel is one of the country's biggest secret. For years and even till now they do not like to speak about it publicly
Israel refuses till now to sign the nuclear non proliferation treaty claiming that it won't sign as long as the other Arab and Islamic countries have nuclear programs , I am sorry but as far as I know and you all know that officially and publicly the only country that has a full nuclear program with nuclear weapons in the region "despite it is actually not from the region but was included lately according to the New definition of the New Middle east that was put by the Bush administration" is Pakistan and I do not think Pakistan is planning to use these weapons against Israel , already they did not plan for this , they wanted to be in the same level of their rival India , in fact they started it back in 1970s only as a respond on the Indian program;it is a nuclear race between the two countries .
Iran is still building its nuclear power for God Sake it has not completed it yet to the degree it can produce a nuclear weapons immediately and to use against Israel or anyone. And with my all respect all the usual big Iranian threats of erasing Israel from the surface of the earth do not include a nuclear threat because of reasons I will say it below
The Iraqi Nuclear Program is now a part from history , thanks to America and Israel; and thank God thousand times that the Iraqis were still building the reactor because if these reactor were operating a nuclear disaster would have taken place in Iraq, the Iraqi nuclear program was destroyed by Israel on two phases , the first one they murdered the head of the Nuclear program the Egyptian Dr.Yahia El-Mashad in Paris in an operation made by the Mossad and the Second phase , the most destructive one was the raid of the IAF on the Iraq Nuclear reactor, by the way the Israelis would not have hit the Iraqi reactor if they had not known very well that the Iraqi army then would fire back as it was engaged in the Iran-Iraq war.
The Libyan Nuclear Program , well we all in the Arab world believed it was a joke , until Gaddafi came and said that he discontinued that program in a gesture to come closer
The Syrian alleged Nuclear program I am sorry I feel it is a public stunt whether from the Israelis or the Americans , I do not buy that the Syrian regime is paying money for a nuclear program , the only thing nuclear I heard about in Syria was when there were accuses for Khaddam that he entered nuclear wastes to be buried north Syria and the one who said this accusation was a Syrian activist whom I think is currently in jail !!!
The Egyptian Nuclear program in the worst time for Israel in 1960s was stopped , the dangerous time when Israel developed its program to meet or stand against its growing Arabic enemies ,the Egyptian Nuclear program is a public stunt thing , presidents only use it to win popularity in Egyptian street to appear as the patriots who working for the advance of the country ,already I forgot how many times our presidents have declared the start of our nuclear program , it is always starting and never finishes or !! It is too obvious . Of course I won't deny that the Egyptian Nuclear activity is always under the Israeli scoop even if it was frozen and the evidence is the continuous assassination of our scientists
Of course I won't speak about the Gulf States and Nuclear energy , because Nuclear energy is not something bought from abroad and operated by Indian and westerns !!!! It is very obvious that the Americans wanted to hit the Iranians by creating more Sunni-Shiite rivalry thing by creating an equivalent Nuclear power in the gulf, Iran joined the Nuclear club and so can the Gulf states ,of course as I said I do not know how they will join this exclusive club it is not by money or imported expertises !!!
The Israelis are scared from these countries as if these countries are mad enough to use their nuclear weapons against them if they have any in the first place , let's be straight here , the Arabs and Muslims will not use Nuclear weapons against Israel for several reasons and here I will stay away from the peaceful human loving slogans :
- Using the Nuclear weapons against Israel won't harm the Israelis only but will harm the Palestinians too not to mention it will destroy the land itself
- Our holy sites will be destroyed in Jerusalem
- All the Arab Neighbours of Israel whether "Egypt,Syria,Lebanon,Jordan" and of course Palestine will suffer the Nuclear fallout and I think now the Nuclear weapons are much destructive than those which were used in 1945 at Hiroshima and Nagasaki
I do not know about the Israelis and but despite judging from the history of the IDF and their code of ethics I know that they know very well that the consequences of a Nuclear war between us and them will cause a complete destruction for both of us whether in the short or the long run
No one will win
This is quite different from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki where there is a whole ocean between them and the United States , also it is quite different between the Cold war and the Nuclear threats between ex-U.S.S.R and the United States where there are oceans and Continents between them also
Why the United States really afraid from North Korea ?? actually North Korea is much more dangerous than Iran to the United States security due to the location of N.Korea to the United States
Now why I wrote all this well because I got sick from Israelis ministers who come and scream in the media about how dangerous that Egypt and Saudi Arabia would have a Nuclear program , a peaceful nuclear program , the programs that will never place
I head enough for the talk here and there about the Iranian Program and how it will destroy the freaking international peace , yet no one dares in the west to Speak about the Israeli Program , nor how it actually threats not the Peace in the region but the environment of the region Egypt and Jordan are threatened by possible earthquakes thanks to Dimona reactor and the Nuclear tests in the Negev desert !!
The west only cares about for the peace of the Israeli population ,ok what about the rest of the population in the middle east which are threatened by the Israeli Nuclear arsenal !!!!
This is not fair , if the west wants a clean area from the nuclear weapons in the middle east then they must start first with Israel then they go to Iran ,this is what the logic says in a perfect world
The Israeli concern about the Irani Nuclear programme is not as much serious as it is about Arab Nuclear potentials. Well, definetly they don't encourage a another Nuclear power in the region. But in case of Iran the concern is only serious as long as the contemporary fanatic ultra-medival regime is concerned. But once there will have been a regime change in Iran in favour of secular or persian nationalist forces, Israeli fears will propmtly wither away. And Even under the regime of the Khomeini worshippers government, Israel is not serious enough about the Irani threat, for If that had been an Arab country, the Irani reactor would have been bombed 6 years ago. We all have to remeber that Israel and the khomeini worshipping Iran had been allied during the eighties against Iraq which was supported hardly by Egypt in its war of defence against the Khomeini.
ReplyDeleteIn case of Arab nuclear potentials, the case is radically different. For Israel will fight to the end any ARAB COUNTRY that dares to go Nuclear. We have to keep on mind what they did to Iraq'S Nuclear reactor, and the Egyptian martyrs SAMIRA MOSSA, yAHIA EL MASHAD, SAYID BEDAIR.....etc
In case of the U.S, however, Americans, definetly, don't want to see a nuclear Iran whether it was the shah or the Khomeini worshippers.
That is because 70% of the oil reseves of the world are a few kilometers off Irani artillery, so Iran will be holding the U.S by its neck if it goes nuclear.
Also rember tht Israel can indeed use nuclear weapons, since the Israeli technolgy is so advanced that they produced tactical Nuclear bombs which a confined destructiuve power and a limited radioactivity sphere.
We are on the same wavelength in most of what you mentioned. Nuclear weapons represent meaningless and ignorant threat among neighbors sharing same geographic region and specially close like Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt, even between India and Pakistan. BTW Pakistan developed (obtained) her nuclear weapon with the US blessing. It is a stupid game politicians use to put the masses in ignorance drawer. If Pakistan is that highly developed why is it lagging way behind bordering on the list between developed and underdeveloped countries? The real power country should hope for is knowledge, science and technology. For instance a country like Japan or South Korea doesn’t need even a week to build one if it means something. These countries already built nuclear power reactors (a far more complicated technology than nuclear weapons). Egypt was on the verge of obtaining a nuclear power reactor in the seventies (with the full blessing of the US) if it wasn’t for the genius Nasser!! And his ignorant remarks “ No one can inspect our spent fuel (the UN), it’s against our sovereignty ” of course the Russian played him well comparing the treatment of Israel. However, if Egypt went that road then, it would have represented today a serious threat to Israel by being way relatively developed (like South Korea), the west could have relied on its technology and relatively cheaper labor. Overall, social development could have gone scales higher than the neighbors in the region. The only thing I would like to add; as a country, your ignorance is blessing to your enemies.
ReplyDelete@Al-Hajjaj ,Just a little piece of historical information ,the Iranian peaceful program started in the time of Shah and that's what is killing the United States , Iran from the legal point of view is not breaking any law what so ever ,Iran signed the Nuclear agreement with the States just before the revolution in a very short period
ReplyDelete@Ohio , what you said implies to a perfect word and we do not live in a perfect word
about Nasser , well it was the head of the Nuclear energy's mistake who told him that there is no danger from Israel because if they hit they will suffer from nuclear fall out in half an hour , it is a well documented incident and Nasser decided to close the project !! I do not know about the Russians , but I know the Russians would find it a profitable business just like the case of Iran
I think you misunderstood my line of thought. I will try to clarify a bit more; The old project that Nasser canceled was a dual purpose Nuclear Power Reactor (to produce electricity & desalinate sea water for agricultural purpose) . By signing the UN nuclear proliferation treaty every country (in the world) agree to accept UN inspectors to verify accounting of the spent fuel in all their Nuclear Civilian Projects. He considered that to be unfair since rumors that Israel was developing Nuclear weapons were floating. Israel didn’t sign the treaty, and her potential activities are outside civilian nuclear projects. Furthermore, regarding the comment from the head of nuclear Energy Agency; it is not a mistake. If Israel uses Nuclear Bombs (particularly then) they will suffer fallouts within hours. This has nothing to do with civilian nuclear treaty. The Russian played him well by linking the civilian nuclear activity with potential military one (the Israelis’)
ReplyDelete@Ohio , oh sorry this is a new thing to me , but if he did refuse to sign the non nuclear proliferation treaty because of Israel then I will respect him , even if we do not have nuclear energy or a program ,it is a principal itself , already Mubarak signed from couple of years :( I do not know why for 20 years he kept we won't sign till Israel signs !!!!!!
ReplyDeleteActually Egypt signed the NPT in 1968 and waited for Israel to do the same (they didn't since Nasser didn't pursue peace treaty like Sadat did later). He should have ignored it and listened to his scientists's advice that it is meaningless threat!!. Sadat later pursued that line but then the nuclear industry suffered setbacks following the TMI and Chernobyl. Mubarak ratified the NPT in the eighties. But recently he raised the question again about Israel's not signing it.To me Israel playing on Politician's ignorance and often put barriers to prevent cooperation between Egypt and the US. The best advice is to ignore them let them have the Bomb and eat it too. Then, they will learn that Egypt is notpart of the ignorance game. Again the biggest threat to them would be tecnically and scientifically knowlegable Egypt
ReplyDelete@Ohio , thanks for adding new information to me ,you said it right , Israel only cares for the scientific and technological advance of Egypt , by the way when we speak about nuclear energy unfortunately we always refer to Nuclear energy in war affair and forget other uses the peaceful uses
ReplyDeletewhat Israel is using the fear factor ,you can't win it because of the Atomic bombs it has you know like the film of Peter Seller "the mouse that roared" it is in the same constant ,of course we are forgetting that the nuclear energy in Israel is used in an attempt to provide a water source to the country
Hi, Zeinobia. First time commenter. I hope these comments are interesting. I apologize for their length. I wanted to make a number of different points.
ReplyDelete1. Israelis actually are not too worried about Egypt gaining nuclear power. There is very little comment in Israeli media about it, and the Israeli government has been extremely restrained in its comments ("Israel does not consider Cairo's newly declared nuclear ambitions a military threat, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told The Jerusalem Post on Monday... ."). So, Israel isn't worried about that after all.
2. What worries Israel is not Egyptian nuclear power plants, but rather Iran gaining nuclear weapons. This is because even so-called "moderates" in that governing elite, such as Rafsanjani, have said that losing 1/3 of the Iranian population in a nuclear war would be acceptable in order to destroy Israel.
The same Iranian military/political leadership lost 1,000,000 people in their war against Iraq, in part because they repeatedly sent "human waves" of their own civilians into the mine fields, poison gas and machine guns of the Iraqi army. Iran's mullahs don't make war the way Egypt or Israel do. Minimizing casualties has nothing to do with their approach. So when they say they are willing to sacrifice 1/3 of their own civilians in order to obliterate your neighbor with nuclear weapons, don't think that the deaths of a million Israeli Arabs or Palestinians would deter them.
If Iran strikes Israel with nuclear weapons, of course, wind patterns will likely blow radioactive fall-out over Egypt. That's not good for you guys. Egyptians should actually be almost as worried about Iranian nukes as Israelis are.
3. That said, an Egyptian nuclear power program isn't a great idea. This is not because of its impact on Israel; it is because such a program would probably be more dangerous to Egyptians than it would be to anyone else. The Egyptian government has a poor infrastructure safety record (think about train accidents, ferry accidents, etc. This is obviously NOT a criticism of Egyptians in general; it's an observation about the government's safety record. Egyptians are wonderful people). The main risk of an Egyptian nuclear power program is a middle eastern Chernobyl disaster. Chernobyl lethally contaminated hundreds of square km, and you may not remember this, but Egypt's previous civilian nuclear program, based on Soviet technology, was stopped after Chernobyl, and NOT because of regional politics. Do you trust your government to keep up safety at such a plant, decade after decade? Or will someone, somewhere, cut costs, or skim a little off the top, and someone won't be properly trained or a crucial safety system will fail... .
4. Why is the Egyptian government not thinking about aggressively developing solar power instead? Egypt is one of only a handful of countries that have vast regions that have long daylight hours year round and annual cloud cover as low as 10-25%; and during the hot months (when you use the most electricity) cloud cover in the south drops to 0-10%. Solar plants would potentially be much more efficient for you than they would be for almost any country in the world. Percentages that low simply don't happen in Europe or most of the US. Large solar power plants could indeed be built in the Egyptian desert. There would be no radioactive waste to dispose of and no danger of horrible accidents, and Egypt could become a true leader in a rapidly growing, high-tech field.
5. I think that big nuclear projects are the latest expensive, wasteful political "fad" to sweep the region. I wish that Egypt (and Jordan) were immune to the lure of flushing large amounts of money down the drain in order to "keep up with the neighbors."
6. But in any case, I think Egyptians misunderstand what "the neighbors" are doing today. 30 years ago, Israel developed nuclear technology. But today, Israel is developing advanced solar technology and is planning to build the world's largest solar power plant in the Negev.
Thanks for reading my very long :-( comment :-)
-Zvi
Hi Zeinobia,
ReplyDeleteI think you asked me to comment on this:
"What worries Israel is not Egyptian nuclear power plants, but rather Iran gaining nuclear weapons. This is because even so-called "moderates" in that governing elite, such as Rafsanjani, have said that losing 1/3 of the Iranian population in a nuclear war would be acceptable in order to destroy Israel.
The same Iranian military/political leadership lost 1,000,000 people in their war against Iraq, in part because they repeatedly sent "human waves" of their own civilians into the mine fields, poison gas and machine guns of the Iraqi army. Iran's mullahs don't make war the way Egypt or Israel do. Minimizing casualties has nothing to do with their approach. So when they say they are willing to sacrifice 1/3 of their own civilians in order to obliterate your neighbor with nuclear weapons, don't think that the deaths of a million Israeli Arabs or Palestinians would deter them".
This is utter zionist bullshit of course.
As it is quite clear from this propagandist's comments (who is so affectionately telling "you guys" that if Iran blows up Israel it will contaminate Egypt too!) the project of the middle east has shifted from "us killing muslims" to "let muslims kill eachother." Are these Israelis assuming everyone in the Arab world is dumb?!
That Iran sent "waves of humans to Sadam's gas fields" is not a PROOF that Iranians are "willing to sacrifice their own civilians to invade other countries"
What kind of morons does this guy think he is dealing with?
1)Iran did not EXAPAND into Iraq
2)Iran DEFENDED herself against Saddam.
3)Because Iran was sanctioned militarily, it had no other alternative.
4)Israel aided Iran to make sure Saddam wouldn't win!
The argument that this person is using has been tried for decades on Palestinians! It ignores the REASONS for which the Palestinian resistance has turned humans into bombs.
Israel, however, exists on the principle of chaos. Somehow these people think if they are not in a "conflict", then the world and especially US will lose interest in them.
I feel sorry for Israel in a way. I understand their insecurities. Their historical myth is that "we are a hated nation". And I am realizing that many Arabs actually do hate them. I cannot blame arabs for hating Israelis either, given the conflictual nature of national identities between these two groups of people. But I am also seeing how Israelis are making it easy for the world to hate them! What Holocaust has afforded Israel is to "act hatefully" without being disciplined. You know the number of UN resolutions that they have violated and not upheld better than I do.
Right now, what Israel is doing is to shift from one "manufactured" enemy to next. Only to make sure someone pays attention. Israel is a spoiled brat, in a permanent state of tantrum, projecting its own insecurities onto a world that can care LESS about Israel. We are constantly FORCED to think about Israel, against our wish and interest. But THAT is the point. To link Israel to Holocaust, and to solicit EMOTIONAL and moral response. (Have you wondered why we don't have the same pornographic infatuation with other hot-zones of atrocity e.g in Sudan?)
Iran does not care about Israel. Neither in a positive way, nor in a negative way. But, having realized that Israel's tantrums get "media attention", Iran has been resorting to the same tool as Israelis: creation of rhetorical chaos.
What Iran and Israel BOTH want is attention and affection! They are both surrounded by unfriendly neighbors. They are both very unified and crystalizd in their respective national identities. They are both priding themselves in their "survival" in the face of adversity.
The average Iranian doesn't hate Israel. The EXTENT of Iranian's dislike of Jews goes to their being stingy, financially! That is all! Iranians also pride themselves for being the only tolerant nation who did not kick Jews out, neither in ancient history, nor in modern one!
Accusing Iran of expansionism is UTTER nonesense. History, facts on the ground, and the national culture and philosophy doesn't lend any evidence for that accusation.
Khomeini is DEAD. And so is his revolution, at least inside Iran!
The pursuit of the RIGHT to peaceful nuclear technology, is Iran's NATIONALIST quest for self-determination and autonomy.
The argument is VALID and clear: Oil's running out => We need to be self-sufficient in energy production!
Iran is investing in other sources of energy (alternativee to fossil fuel) such as wind power, hydroenergy and even biofuel. The boom in Iran is a scientific one. The quest for nuclear energy taps into that aspiration of Iranians: to advance in science and technology!
I have a feeling this is making some people slightly envious and unsettled, compelling them to erect scarecrows from the figments of their insecure imaginations.
I am afraid some of what Anon. said has its merits. Particularly, regarding Egypt’s record of attention to details affecting infrastructural safety. Egypt’s pursuance of Nuclear Energy is deeply tainted with high risk. It is sad to say that during Nasser’s old project Egypt was far better enriched with nuclear scientists and engineers than today. Unfortunately, most, if not all of them, left Egypt to the US, France and Canada achieving great successes, and now mostly retired, changed interests if not dead!. If Egypt is serious about it, it should work now on re-establishing the scientific and technical foundation needed for this endeavour
ReplyDelete@Ziv ,it is good to hear from the other side , you know It is strange that Olmert says that we are no longer the enemy where as Lieberman says that it will be a disaster if Egypt or Saudi Arabia
ReplyDeleteAbout the fear of repeating the Chernobyl well surely we are not clumsy enough to blow ourselves , my dear Ziv you are insulting us in a polite away , there is a huge difference between the transportation ministry and its plan in order to privatize the trains sector and the scientific research ministry with all the nuclear experts we got it , you will be surprised of the number of experts and scientists we got in Egypt with out a job
we are the one who should be afraid from something like this to happen in your nuclear Reactors , after all you are the one who got Nuclear weapons and bombs !!
Anyhow relax and do be afraid this is just a public stunt
about Iran ,well the Iranian answered you
@Naj ,the best thing to hear from all sides :)
@Ohio , your scientists did not finish yet ,you still got them and they still got killed in a strange circumstances especially the young people , last month one scientist was killed in a strange circumstance this means that you still got an element some fears it
@hajaj aka Amr this post is not about Iran or the Iranians dear
ReplyDeleteHi, Zeinobia, Ohio, Naj & others.
ReplyDeleteThanks for reading my comment.
I hope that I showed that Israel isn't trying to stop Egypt's civilian nuclear program. If Israel were worried, it would be obvious, because Israelis don't hide major concerns well.
Zeinobia, Liebermann says a lot of things that few others support. He is an extremist, a loose cannon and a racist demagogue. Fortunately, he has no power in the government. He doesn't actually run a ministry and he can't implement policy. The rest of the government doesn't trust him. You're being far too pessimistic.
I raised my concern about the Egyptian government's safety record; you are of course free to reject it as unrealistic, but unfortunately I don't feel very reassured. Egyptian society is not "clumsy." But you don't have to be clumsy to have a disaster. The USSR was extremely qualified to run a nuclear program. It had vast resources, deep technical and scientific expertise, and had been running nuclear plants for decades. Chernobyl happened anyway. With nuclear plants, a mistake only needs to happen once. I have a deep distrust for the nuclear industry (NOT limited to Egypt). I'd like to see Israel shut down Dimona too.
Zeinobia, you were worried about Israeli nuclear weapons. However, Israel and Egypt have not fought a war in over 30 years, and that will continue as long as Egypt wants it to continue (let's hope that it continues for thousands of years). Because I have faith that Egypt's government is not actively suicidal, and thus I am sure that you won't attack Israel, I can say that Israel's weapons will never be used against Egypt.
I'm kind of sad that nobody picked up on the alternative energy stuff I said at the end of my original comment, which I think is more interesting than the Iran-Israel thing. But since Naj did me the honor of responding at length, I'll try to provide my thoughts on his (I assume that Naj is a guy; please forgive me if I am wrong) comments. Zeinobia, if you want me to stop responding to the Iran thread after this, I will, but I would like to do Naj the honor of responding to his(?) comments.
Naj: of course Muslims shouldn't be killing Muslims (or anyone else)! You don't know my politics, so please avoid personalized attacks on me; I don't have a "project" in the middle east, and I personally grieve for a Muslim kid slaughtered by terrorists just as I grieve for a Jewish kid slaughtered by terrorists.
You also misunderstood my point about the Iranian regime. I never said that Iran attacked Iraq; I'm well aware that Saddam's regime attacked Iran. What I said was that when the current Iranian regime fights a war, it has a track record of throwing away its own civilian lives. Add to that the "moderate" Rafsanjani's horrific statement about being willing to lose 1/3 of your population in order to destroy Israel, plus Nejad's apparent fixation on attacking Israel, and it is clear why Israelis believe that your government doesn't subscribe to the concept of M.A.D. That is why Israelis are worried about Iranian nukes. If Israel believed that MAD would prevent Tehran from using nukes, then it would not be responding the way it is. For anyone who does not know what MAD is, please read the wikipedia summary, because it's critical to understanding when nuclear weapons are a deterrent, and when they are not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
Naj, Israel's concerns have nothing to do with Iranian expansionism. Iran is not Israel's neighbor. The people who worry about Iranian expansionism are the Gulf Arabs, not the Israelis. Let's stay focused. I'll also defer discussing your Holocaust comments and your comments about the Palestinian bombers until some other time; none of these have anything to do with Zeinobia's post. If Z. asks that I respond to these points, I'll do so. But this comment of mine is already way too long. :-(
Naj, you also misunderstand Israelis as people and as a nation. Israelis get up in the morning and go to work or school just like you do. They want to raise their kids in peace and not have them killed. They look forward to a vacation (maybe in Egypt or Turkey). They don't like people trying to destroy them; they react badly to that. But Israelis don't like chaos, rhetorical or otherwise. They want security, which is very different. And you misunderstand Israel's general strategic outlook. The Israeli government has no interest in creating chaos in the region. Israel's basic interests in the region are quite narrow: national survival, peace, and trade. Chaos gets in the way of all of these.
Khomeini is dead: true. But the ideology of destroying Israel is very much alive. Israelis don't hold "World without Khomeinism" conferences, nor are there big propaganda billboards about Iran in Israel, nor does Israeli TV make childrens' programs calling on kids to martyr themselves in a struggle against Iran. Iran's current government does all of these things. Does it bother you that your government puts so much effort into making people hate a small country 600km away? Do you ever worry that maybe these are warning signs, that this stuff is evidence of irrational hatred? Would you trust Nejad to keep his finger on the button but not push it?
On Iran's national aspirations: I absolutely believe that Iran has a right to exist, to be a nation, to determine its own destiny and do alternative energy research and so on. So does Egypt. So does Israel. You have my full support. Go for it. :-D Read my comments about Egyptian solar power. I greatly prefer solar, wind energy, etc. over nuclear plants.
But Iran's government doesn't have a right to destroy Israel.
-Zvi
P.S. Zvi is pronounced "Tzvee".
Seems to have just come across a hot debate over this way! Well as Palestino, I was born an raised in Basrah Iraq untill 2005, where I had to leave. Everyone talks about Palestinians of Israel, those of Gaza and these west bank- but what about us? Iraqi Palesenians, I was ordered to leave my home by an Iranian sectarian gang. I fled with my life to Jordan and from there I was shipped by the U.N to Florida.
ReplyDeleteDue to my percoanl experience I think I have a few Cents to throw in. As a Palestinian in Iraq I have beenvery fairly by the legitmate government of Iraq before the invasion. Suddenly everything changed hords of armed men coming from Iran stormed into Basrah with the American forces. They literally wiped out all signs of sunnis and Arab shiites from the city. Entire neighborhoods like that of Tamim was subjected to two choices after having drilled a few heads from the neighbopurhood infront of Everybody. Leave the place!! swear alliance to Ayatollah Khameini or ………
Politics have never been my game. Quite strange on part of a Palestino, well, We are humans after all. I didn’t like the Iraq –Iran war. Why waste the energy of Arabs on fighting other Muslims? My father used to say that the war was must, othrwise the khomeinists will invade Iraq. The men of Khomeini and his revolutionaries were calling for a pan shiite state orbiting around Iran..I consider myself more Iraqi rather Palestinian, for that was country that endorsed us oened I doors for us and there I grew up and was filled with the Arabnatinal feelings. We were given free health care and education , we were granted jobs. We felt like we owned the country. It was indeed our country.
Now my Father, may god bless his soul, has proven himself to be quite right as he had always been. Wish he would come back for only a minute just to tell him that I miss him. He was shot by Itla3at- the Iranian intelligence operational forces in Iraq for his well known pan Arab tendencies.
Why are they doing this? Shiites in Iraq were top baathists, army generals. They were as good citizens as everybody. The red line was political shiisim as it ensuesloyality to the Iranian regiome which launched a ruthless war against Iraq since 1979. The same goes of sunni political wahabism which was squashed brutally by Sadam’s ruthless regime, only when it comes to politics Sdam was bloody murderer. Never thless On every other aspect I give him full credit, he was dedicated to Arabism he created prosperous state where the word Sunni or shiite was not allowed to be mentioned. That was it that was the main chasm between Iraq and Iraq. The legitmacy of Iran in the region goes to its image of the patron of shiites, while it is actually the patron of its own self interests.
After a series of border harrasments on part of Iranians and extraordinarly aggressive rhetoric on part of the fanatic Khomeini regime. Iraq had no choice but to go to war which only served the interets of U.S and Israel. Soon after the war had started Israel invaded Lebanon and massacred Palestinians there. See it is us the Palestinmians who always pay the price.
The lesson I have learned from here is that we arabs shoul always stick together
God Bless you all , and Inshallah my country Iraq will kick the Iranians and Americans out.
@Zvi , I got what you say and agree on the alternative energy sources ,already I think I spoke about it before , it will cost else at least during this time and yes Dimona should be shut today before tomorrow , guys I read several environmental reports from Jordan or Egypt ,you will be harmed first than us
ReplyDeleteThe problem Zvi and I know that this hard to believe after reading in your all our previous wars you were the one who started it whether in 1956 or 1967 , in 1973 we wanted to return back our land and it was a war not in Israel but on Egyptian land
even if we have wars , this will not give us the excuse to use nuclear weapons against each other from the ethical point of view ,from the environmental point of view it will be like the fools' game , not forget in the past you had generals who thought in a strange manner , in fact I respect Nasser when he listened to the director of the Egyptian nuclear energy then when he told him if they hit us , the nuclear fallout would reach them in 1/2 hour
@Kamil, well I am sorry for your brother but may I ask you where you are now ?? I know that the Palestinians in Iraq were deported
Salam Ya Zaynab,
ReplyDeleteI have assumed your name to be Zaynab which is just like that of my sister, but in case it is not then Iam sorry in advance:)
You have a wonderful blog, I am amazed that you are that young, yt are intereted in all these issues. It is really a pity that the youth of now adays are busy watching Hayfe and Nany and star academy while the Iranians and the neo-cons raze Baghadad
I was shipped to U.S- Colorado and there i go a job in the keys in the south of Florida. Right Now iam on a scandnavian work tour for the agency where I work.
@Racoon , well yes my name is Zayneb , and welcome to my blog and thanks for the nice words
ReplyDeleteand Good luck in your new life
Hi, Zeinobia.
ReplyDeleteIn each case, Israel responded to Arab military actions. I can provide more details if you like.
Regardless, Sadat's courageous peacemaking effort completely changed the situation. Egypt won't pursue military action against Israel, and Israel will not respond militarily. There won't be a war. That is a very good thing for all of us.
Generals with weird ideas: no state leaves nuclear arsenals in generals' hands. In states with nukes, the weapons cannot be "activated" without codes provided by the president/PM and some other senior non-military leader. No state run by remotely sane people wants a single crazy person to be able to start a nuclear war. There are always "checks and balances."
I understand that there may be a level of fear about this in Egypt. But it won't happen. Egypt won't attack and overrun Israel or attack it with nukes. Israel has no other use for using its nukes.
> this will not give us the excuse
> to use nuclear weapons against
> each other from the ethical point
> of view
Indeed.
Strangely, the Israeli strategy can only be successful if the weapons never need to be used. They are only useful as deterrents against attempts to obliterate Israel itself.
If they ever had to be used, it would mean that the strategy had completely failed.
> ,from the environmental point of
> view it will be like the fools'
> game
Yes.
> I respect Nasser when he listened
> to the director of the Egyptian
> nuclear energy then when he told
> him if they hit us , the nuclear
> fallout would reach them in 1/2
> hour
Exactly. I agree. Using nukes against Egypt would be suicidal for Israel.
Anyway, the best thing for everyone is for all parties to build a true peace!
In the meantime, I find Olmert's comments about Egypt's peaceful nuclear energy program to be a good indication that Israel's government sees Egypt as a stable and sensible neighbor rather than an enemy.
Just curious: do a lot of Egyptians use solar water heaters today, or do they mostly use electric/gas ones? Are Egyptians in general doing recycling and "green" projects, or is it mostly an early-stage government thing right now?
-Zvi
Zvi’s comment encouraging Solar Energy versus Nuclear Energy is worth debating. Israel was one of the leading countries to pursue Solar Power out of complexity of nuclear power at a time and availability of the sun shining through the area. For the last decades the whole world is dreaming of cleaner energy than oil and coal, and while nuclear is relatively clean, and economic source of energy, it is technologically challenging and nuclear waste need to be effectively addressed. If solar energy has the answer that simple shouldn’t you think Israel would have benefited economically selling it to the world!!?.My simple knowledge about solar power is that it is at disadvantage for the following reasons;
ReplyDelete Not available at night/ in cloudy areas
Plants require large land area
Technology still relatively expensive
Not very efficient (10-15%)
Ohio, very good points.
ReplyDeleteSolar water heaters are widely used in Israel, and Israeli companies sell solar technology abroad today. E.g. Solel is building a 550MW power plant in California.
The Israeli government ignored solar technology at a national level until the recent initiation of the Negev plant project.
Night/clouds: true. However, power use peaks on hot summer days. Solar generation peaks at the same time. This is helpful. Solar power WON'T cover everything, but it can help a lot. Clouds: % cloud cover in Egypt's southern desert is very low.
Cost: compared to nuclear power plants...? :-) Solar thermal plants can be built quickly and easily, and they have significantly lower "hidden costs" than you get with most other kinds of systems.
Size: solar plants are large, but a coal plant depends on coal fields, coal-transporting railroad lines, etc. that are much larger.
Other renewable sources, as Naj said, are also important.
-Zvi
@Ohio ,these are good points , the disadvantage of Solar System , you got other alternative for green energy and they are already in use , the wind energy is already in use and you can see it if you go to the red sea
ReplyDeletealso you got the natural gas
@Ziv , well the use of Solar energy is so limited in Egypt but as I said there are other alternatives , the Natural gas and electricity are mostly used especially the natural gas
about the Peaceful program Olmert happy with , My dear Ziv we all know for sure he is happy because he wants another Arabic Sunni power to stand against Iran
the power game in the region
about the war I also got historical evidence on every single wars fortunately every war between the two countries I tried to cover historically in this blog in an extensive way
In 1956 Israel joined the Britain and France game to hit Egypt after the nationalization of Canal , the declared reason for the Israeli public was to stop the Palestinian commandos from Gaza , still do you think it needed to invade Sinai to stop the commandos raids !!
Egyptian state then did not think for one second that Israel was going to hit us
in 1967 ,your intelligence men made a trap to push Nasser to the war while they know very well that he is bluffing 100% , his army was exhausted and he was repeating the 1961 game where he put all the forces on the borders
Closing the Tirian crossing issue could have been solved through international means and the UN
Hi, Zeinobia.
ReplyDeleteFor 30 years, until 1977, the official policy of the Egyptian government was that Egypt would destroy Israel. Egypt constantly launched attacks, and in 1967 in particular, it moved a massive invasion force to the border. It fully expected to invade and smash Israel.
Not surprisingly, Israel responded in ways that didn't please Egypt. I would expect Egypt to do the same if the Sudan and Libya swore themselves to Egypt's destruction, blockaded it and drove an invasion force to its border.
Fortunately, in 1977, after 30 years of trying to destroy Israel, President Sadat closed the old book and courageously chose to write a new book of peace.
30 years of wasteful, destructive warfare have been followed by 30 years of peace. We don't need to lock ourselves in the prison of the first 30 years.
Regarding Olmert: Egypt's civilian nuclear program is not at all useful as a counterweight to Iran's nuclear weapons program.
And Sunni powers have stood against Iran for decades. Today, the Saudis are particularly unhappy with Iran. Egypt, while a hugely important player in the region, has mostly avoided entanglement in the current Iran thing, and Olmert knows it.
Olmert's statement that Israel does not see Egypt's civilian nuclear program as a military threat was simply a statement of fact. The evidence of Israel's actions supports Olmert's assertion. Like Egypt, Israel has evolved during the last 30 years; in 1977, it's doubtful that any Israeli leader would have made a statement like Olmert's. But it's clear that Israel now trusts Egypt in this area. It's as simple as that.
-Zvi
Zeinobia,
ReplyDeletethe reason Israel is against Arab countries having nuclear weapons is that, unlike Israel, Arabs countries used WMDs against other countries.
Egypt gased Yemenis and Saudis in the North Yemen War in the 1960s, as can be seen here (btw it was the Nazis who were behind Egypt's chemical weapons program):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Yemen_Civil_War#Gas_warfare
Iraq, as is perfectly known, used gas against Kurds and Iranians in the 1980s as can be seen here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardasht#1987_attacks_on_Sardasht_with_chemical_weapons
So the Israelis have every reason to fear Arabs aquiring nuclear weapons.