Please read this translated column of Nawra Nagm ,which was published in Daily Wafd newspaper earlier this week commenting on the Homosexuality and our views as Muslim Arab society.
I really thank My dear friend Mohamed Al Gohary for taking time to translate it .
Here is the original scan of the column
Look as a Muslim and an Arab I refuse Homosexuality with all my respect to those who welcome it.
You can’t impose Homosexuality on a society that refuses it despite there are homosexuals in it , yes I admit there are homosexuals in Egypt I can’t deny it but you can’t impose it simply because you want it.
I mean what sort of democracy the west and America want and they want to impose something against the people’s well !! I think democracy says that the majority rule or wish should be respected as it represents the people’s wish. The Majority of Egyptian people refuses Homosexuality whether they are Muslims or Christians “The Orthodox Church is against it also”.
Judge Hisham El-Bastawesy explained this to a group of western human rights organizations from couple of months ago and they were not convinced.
We are Eastern , We are Muslims and Christians who are following their religions , the west must understand this and respect it. We do not care what happens in that part of the world but we care in our societies.
About Polygamy , the feminists in Egypt received a blow when the Al Azhar and the Minister of Justice said that no one will touch the polygamy right in the Egyptian laws after it was announced that it will banned in Egypt just like in Tunisia.
Theologically it is right Granted by God in Islam on set of conditions in the Holy Quran , where it was clearly that One is enough if that set of conditions mainly justice between wives whether compassion or economically are not met. If the man can sustained two households as it should than One is enough . The Holy Quran also says Do not ban what Allah “SWT” allowed , this is important
People whether men or women will refuse this change I think because again you are standing against Islam and it is an old fact as this land we belong to that religion is ,was and will be the major factor in Egyptian Life.
Let me ask you this, do you accept of a person taking a female as a sexual slave and "technically" raping her for nothing more than his own pleasure ?
ReplyDeleteThe idiocity of this article is that they are ascribing homosexuality a nationality and they are arguing against it based on religious differences ... that is crass to label your own country men who are homosexual and casting them outside of your society because of something that they are.
essentially it goes back to your own moral maturity and how you view others if you let your self discriminate against them due to something that they are and to make it easier on your self you view them as people who adopted a foreign culture over their own when you can so clearly see homosexual relationships depicted on the very papyrus papers that you are so very proud off.
crass psuedo-intelligent crap is what i think of this comparison and more so of this poorly written article
@bambam: you really sound like a bambam!
ReplyDeleteWhat sexual slavery are you talking about here? When did marriage become sexual slavery and raping? If you look at it this way, then you have a problem, in your mind, your eyes, or your heart. You definitely have an issue.
What is the problem with a society that voluntarily rejects homosexuality (or any other activity)? Simply, take it or leave it!
did i say marriage stupid ? i asked a question with an intent in my mind, either answer it or go slander somewhere else ... or evolve and develop a cranium capable of discussion rather than barking.
ReplyDeleteon the other hand the problem with that society is the same as with any oppressive society... they don't work
Oppression!? Every society has to be governed by a law and the law has to be respected as long as it is accepted by the society, regardless of the source of the law, God, humans, or apes.
ReplyDeleteWhich society does not work? The society that you are talking about has been working for thousands of years before other societies even had existed.
@bambam , what slavery you are speaking about I thought just like anonymous that you are referring to polygamy despite the fact the woman is not taken as a slave and she approves it .
ReplyDeleteI do not find any reference what so ever in the article about this slavery.
second
about the society and history
you are speaking about the Pharaohs , well I read about homosexuality in the historical references and it is very rare condition in the Egyptian society that honored the woman and the intimate relations between the man and the woman
again you are speaking about a society that honored the family ,the manhood ,it was not like the Greek society
Now our modern society has its sets of rules you may consider it wrong or right still this is what the majority think and believe in ,you can not impose something because of the minority especially if it is against the religion which is the basis of this community
this is democracy
I mean if we have a poll about the homosexual marriage "not even rights of the gays, here I am raising the bar" and the Egyptian people refuse it , will you respect the people's decision then !?!
Marriage in Islam IS SLAVERY. Period. In the Judeo-Christian tradition it is a completely equal PARTNERSHIP based on love, mutuality of duties and affection, and loyalty. In Islam it is a legal contract between two slave-owning men regarding a woman's pimped-away body for money and nothing more. Money and sex. Nothing more. Muslims have no concept of love, partnership, equality, or loyalty, and there's absolutely no room for any of the above in any system based on duality and submission, the cornerstones of every institution, practice, and social construct in Islam. I've seen the disgusting Sharia law contract. It is nothing more than institutionalized prostitution. Of course, what do you expect from people who live by a book that uses 1 word - nikah - to refer interchangeably to sex, rape, marriage, prostitution, incest, and child molestation? Consent (without which it is always rape, and which can only be obtained by a woman who is at least 18 years old) and love never enter it, but money and property always do. It's disgusting. Any woman who would ever for a second even consider marrying or even going on a single date with anyone who would ever commit polygamy, beat her, rape her (if Muslims even have any concept of rape, let alone affectionate sex, healthy sex, and I say that because an Australian imam just tried to pass a law whereby rape could not exist in marriage because Muslims have no concept of it, and he was deported), restrict her movement, or marry her under Sharia law, let alone genitally mutilate her daughters, let alone who refuses to have sex with her when she's on her period, who doesn't allow her to be on top during sex, let alone who doesn't regularly and cheerfully perform oral sex, or who treats her as anything less than a queen has absolutely no self-respect and gets everything she deserves.
ReplyDeleteI noticed you didn't print this article: http://www.sonsofapesandpigs.org/2008/06/the-us-congress-and-leadership.html
What did I tell you would happen if Egypt kept sliding down that slippery Sharia slope back into the early Middle Ages? See? The Koran is not for all people for all time. Just backassward medieval sickos from Satan's a-hole in the year 600, as civilization continues to prove time and time again. Just wait until McCain's president. You haven't seen what a real American cowboy will do. Bush is a fake cowboy and Saudi Arabia's bitch, but that will all be over soon. Just wait.
@jdamn: I am sorry but your post has nothing of truth in it, as always by the so hateful people who like to interpret and explain Islam and Muslims through such a blind vision.
ReplyDeleteBefore attempting to reply to your points, here is a reasonable resource to read about women in Islam (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/), hopefully you spend some time to look at it instead of waiting for McCain. By the way, why are you waiting for McCain? Are you waiting for him to go and bomb the whole Arab and Middle-eastern populations like what the two Bush’s did with Iraq or what?
Here are quick comments on a couple of items that you unnecessarily included in your post and I hope I am not saying something wrong concerning the Islamic low, people may want to confirm these points with an authentic resource.
In Islam a husband and wife can have sex while the wife is in her period but without having intercourse, this is understandable and there is no need to explain why or how.
Secondly, in Islam, a husband and wife can enjoy themselves by any sexual activity they may like including "oral" activities but excluding "anal" sex. As far as I know, oral sex is not welcome but if it will please the couple, then it is okay.
Finally, where did you find that Islam says women cannot be on top during sex? This is a general trend: you build a twisted view about Islam and Muslims (or any "the other"), believe yourself, start acting based on your own twisted understanding and do not even consider listening the other to correct your view. Once again, a husband and wife should enjoy themselves by any way they may like except anal sex, and that includes, of course, woman being on top.
Z...I'm wondering...what do u think of men who marry a 2nd wife without telling the 1st...
ReplyDeleteRe: that poisonous diatribe written by jdamn...i would just delete it...who needs more hate and poison in this world...u try 2 generate conversation on ur blog but unfortunately sometimes the sick and twisted come on ur blog full of lies, hatred and vicious garbage
Women were considered chattels, part of a man's property in marriage and only were given the vote in the late 1900s in most Western nations...women were forced to change their surname 2 their husbands family name to indicate that they were his property
How is it equal when a woman has to work outside the home, work inside the home, do the bulk of childcare and still be a sexslave 4 her husband...there is a reason most women don't have a high sex drive in the West..they r 2 tired from being slaves 2 their jobs, children and husbands..Wake the Hell Up already idiot
@jdamn, I don't blame you for your hateful posts because I already labled you as arrogant, ignorant,and mentally disabled. However, I blame Zeinobia for allowing you to post them here despite her claim that she won't accept any insult in her blog. My dear Zeinab, freedom of speech does not mean to allow people like jdamn to keep insulting Islam and Arabs in this sick and disgusting way. jdamn forgot to mention that in his culture, most of girls and boys lose their virginity by age 18. The latest news about the 17 high school girls at the same school in Massachusetts who got pregnant is a proof that jdamn was using crack when he claimed that christianity respects women's rights more than Islam.
ReplyDeleteRead this article by Abul Kasem, in which he backs every statement he makes with scripture, and tell me that anything I said was in any way untrue, unfair, uncalled for, or unjustifed: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/abulkazem/SexualityinIslam.htm
ReplyDeleteIt's been reprinted at Frontpage magazine and Islam Watch as well. I also highly recommend his ebook, 'Women in Islam, an exegesis:' http://www.islam-watch.org/abulKasem/WomenInIslam/women_in_islam.htm
Finally, any system which recognizes any two groups of people as being in any way different or having rights or customs which are in any way different is a system based on hate, with a standard by which one group is considered human one is considered subhuman. Period. I've seen the Sharia law contract, with the 4 spaces for the man's wives, the space where the bride has to sign saying that she is a virgin, so that if she does not sign it, she can be returned to her family so they can murder her, and the space for the father's signature, since women are, clearly, as expemplified by the fact that the father's permission is necessary, property, like a cow, and therefore less than human under Sharia law. If a woman cannot do what she wants with whom she wants without the permission of a man then she is by definition a slave. That is what slavery is: being someone's property aand being unable to live one's life as one wants without someone else's permission. And I'm well-aware of the fact that women can't work or travel without their slave-owner's permission, and that a dowry is required for marriage "for the upkeep of a bride's genitals." But it's not slavery, prostitution, and based on anything but sex, money and property. Except in theory, practice, and mind. How deluded can you people be?
N. American Princess, those are exactly the sort of dumb bitches I'm talking about: desperate losers who tolerate anything less than equality from men, who get everything they deserve. I never said that ineuality was equality. I said that stupid bitches who settle for less equality get what they deserve. We're women. We don't HAVE to put up with less. I never have. If they didn't put it in a prenup that a husband has to divide the work equally or pay someone else to do his part and then contribute 50% of the money to the cost of everything else, that's what they get, but what kind of desperate loser settles for less than that? ANd who are these women with no sex drives? All women with children have decreased sex drives. That's why they say that children are the best form of birth control. I can only imagine how off-putting little monsters running around and screaming would be. But stupid bitches are stupid bitches, whatever coulture they come from, and they're pathetic desperate idiots who settle for less than equality. Thank God I'm pretty and self-respecting enough to not have to tolerate that.
ReplyDeleteHazem, first, about half of all American kids lose their virginity by 18. Second, I'm a woman. Third, sex between 18-yr-old is ok with 16 and 17-yr-olds because it's not statutory rape or child molestation. But a 16 or 17-yr-old is not a consenting adult and I wouldn't recommend it. My point was, and I will grant you that I was about as clear as mud on it, was that in the Muslim world one can be killed for 'adultery' so they get married too young. That's disgusting, self-destructive, and dangerous. Add to that the fact that few kids in the Muslim have anything approaching adequate sex education, and you get real problems. But if man over 18 sleeps with anyone under 18 he has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life, which makes sense because any guy who is in college and is still cruising high schools for girls is a pedophile, but 18-year-olds are still in high school. Sex before marriage is far less harmful, particularly safe sex, than marriage at a young age.
ReplyDeleteI personally started having sex at 17 with my long-term boyfriend. We were always careful and I have no regrets 12 years later. We were together for 6 years, but he was 18 when we met, and I was 17. I also happen to have Christian scriptural concept of adultery, which differs from the Christian dogmatic conception. Adultery, in Christian scripture, is the absence of momogamy. It is being unfaithful to one's spouse. It is not sex before marriage. Do you really think that Jesus and Mary Magdalene never got it on the 15 years they were together? Of course they did. That is not adultery. Polygamy is adultery.
Here's another source, from an ex-Muslim, who says that women can't be on top during sex: http://www.wae.org/islam/free-islam.htm
ReplyDeleteAlso, it's simply impossible for women's sexual pleasure to be a priority when women are ritually genitally mutilated. That's the entire point of the mutilation. Also, Arabic has no word for 'cunnilingus.' Pretty telling.
@Zanobia
ReplyDeleteI'll presume ur against what the question stands for and i'll comment based on that presumption.
The article simply refers to religion as the impetus for social morality, and that human rights should stem from respect to religion and its rules rather than the other way around. thats what the article is saying in essence.
So about slavery, muslims are allowed (in the quran) to take sexual slaves (sabaya) and harrim for their own pleasure where that women is meant to please them sexually without any other contract. I hope, that you can atleast morally object to such a thing if you did then you went against what religion laid out as morally acceptable. hence when it comes to homosexuality it is basically the same thing, its even a stronger case since there is no actual harm done to anyone in this case while in the previous one the list is endless.
As for democracy; the main issue is that nothing is set in stone in democracy, you will always revisit an issue that hasn't dealt with properly, so they might refuse it but that doesn't mean it's the end game.
The mentality as you well have proven is not ready to deal with such an issue that has been weighed heavy by misconceptions, and you won't try to bother with rights unless you address those misconceptions first.
So in conclusion first of all morality should not absolutely stem from religion *there goes that article* and secondly there is nothing set in stone in democracy.
AS for jdamn; it was an amusing read really, a really amusing fiction.
As for hazem; he's australian not american, there is a difference. on the other hand i think you believe it's better to just take up honor crimes as a curtailing factor against people having their own choices in life...
@bambam , The Holy Quran when it was revealed in Arabia , Slavery was in every part in this world "you can't deny it" , It said you can have female slaves and you can have sex with them "in case of pregnancy you should marry them as free which did not happen before" but on the other hand the price of setting free slaves was too tempting which is Emancipation of hell
ReplyDeleteDo not judge on the Harem of Baghdad rulers and the Ottoman Empire because they were wrong.I do not need to say about how corrupted they were .
The Egyptian people since the dune of history joined Religion with morals with rights and duty ,you can't simply change something huge like this by imposing certain mindset you believe it is right and consider as retarded
There are millions of Muslims around the Globe and I think it is unfair to disrespect their believes because in the west they believe in certain things
yes there is nothing stone in democracy but if the people chose something everyone should go with it
@N.American princess, he is not a man ,he is a coward with my all respect
@Hazem , I believe in freedom of speech plus it gives an insight to the McCain supporters mentality
@Jdamn, my dear again you come here with your ears close attacking us using biased materials of ex-Muslims , I can bring you similar stuff from material from ex-Christians but it is not a football match
Now polygamy is adultery , well my dear polygamy in Islam a form of protection against adultery , I do no t have to go in Jesus and Mary Magdalena part because it is too ridiculous even for a Muslim , prophets do not have sexual relations outside the wedlock
hey thanks for your reply, i'm not judging on ottoman or abbasid harrem, although you are being subjective and doing just that.
ReplyDeleteThe simple rule I am talking about is; while at war and invading an enemy you are allowed to take their women as sabaya and you are allowed by decree to have sexual relations with them. I'm contrasting that with my own morality at this point, and i think that this is morally wrong since it constitutes rape.
You are free to argue a positive angle to that decree but there really isn't any that i can see.
@Military Jdam
ReplyDeleteI'm really astonished when you wants us who live in Muslim and Eastern Societies to refer to books which happen to refer to the same Muslim and Eastern Societies we already live in. I see this an entirely ridiculous way of discussion since instead to impose our direct views from the real life, we just refer to books, giving away our opinion (which I think more sensible for me and Zeinobia and others already living in a Muslim Arab community). So when you ridicule our direct relations with real life and refer to other books? Then this is lose-lose state of discussion.
@Zeinobia You are most welcome.
@anonymous , may I ask something does this practice of Capturing women was only during the Arab conquests and the Arab army only did it ?? or it was a tradition in all armies during that time !!??
ReplyDeleteAnd if you return back to the old history ,you will find that POWs in ISlam were treated in a very human way
My dear the Sabaya system was before Islam and in fact Islam came and fought it by set of rules including the marriage of the pregnant slave and setting her free because in Arabia pre-Islam era ladies and women were captured and became real slaves and also their children just like in the epic story of Anater Ibn Shadad
Please do not mix between those two era
and if I may recommend , please read the books of Karen Armstrong and there is an important french book wrote in the 19th century I think about the true history of Islam
@Mohammed El-Gohary , :)
I actually won't entertain answering your questions because you didn't bother answering my simple questions.
ReplyDeleteislam is a religion that is for all times, that allows me to mix eras. So saying that others did it so there is nothing wrong with it now is ... counter islamic actually on every level. anyways this will never go anywhere since you just have your mind set about the issue so have a good day.
As for the recommendation, i'm quite familiar with karen but there is no french orientelist that comes to mind, maybe you are thinking of goethe.