Yousri Fouda discussed the coming referendum in South Sudan after two months in his show last Friday.
The guests represented Egypt “Ambassador Ahmed Haggag”, SPLA “Yasser Arman” and the adviser of the Sudanese president “Abdullah Nassar”. Of course when we speak about South Sudan ,one episode is not enough at all but this episode it is a must watch because there are interesting questions asked regardless of the answers we got.
You can watch the video below after the break.
I will not speak about the representative of Egypt in the discussion but rather the two Sudanese guests who clearly represent the disastrous situation in Sudan , you only have to watch “Abdullah Nassar” to understand what is wrong in the country.
There is a very important question that Nassar and Arman did not answer fully : How accurate the statements of Yadlin about the Israeli military and logistic support to the SPLA in the South. These statements came after the statements of Salva Kirr that there was no reason why South Sudan and Israel have diplomatic relations. Araman underestimated the statements and kept insisting that the SPLA supports the Palestinian cause and has good relations with Egypt …etc.
Also the question regarding the Nile water and whether Juba will coordinate with Khartoum or with Addis Ababa, Arman was too diplomatic speaking about the days of Nasser and unity between Arabs and Africans when we all know this utopia will not take place. Arman wants to calm down the Egyptians and make them comfortable with the new Southern republic as far as I could tell.
Hala’ib’s issue was brought up in a viewer’s question to Al Bashir’s adviser who believes that in the unity of Egypt and Sudan besides the unity of Sudan as if Bashir himself did not claim that Halayib were Sudanese and he would restore it back !! Again I am convinced that John Gargang was killed because someone did not want a better future for Sudan ,I prefer him over kirr' with his Bush’s fat.His answer to Hamdi Razek’s question showed a real understanding to the mutual interest and national security of Egypt.
The good thing is that Fouda promised to present an episode about Hala’ib.
By the way the maps used in the beginning of the show do not represent the official stand of Egypt nor the viewers of the makers of this TV show.
Back to Yadlin’s statements which Fouda considers as facts , I wonder if he thinks in the same way regarding Yadlin’s statement about Egypt in the same event. I consider the Yadlin’s statements about South Sudan facts but I have my doubts when it comes to Egypt regardless of what you think.
I do not think that the referendum will be delayed especially with the American pressures on Sudan.
I am kind of pessimist when it comes to South Sudan and I feel that there will be a war in the way.
Zeinobia you should recommend that viewers watch the whole 8 episodes.
ReplyDeleteMr Fouda is a very educated and reasonable man, and he deals with Sudanese affairs with a level of respect that some of his counterparts lack - I refer to Ahmad Mansour and your darling Amr Adib.
I think all intelligent people will be able to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions.
The debate was useful - although the input of Ambassador Haggag was limited, with all due respect to him.
Also there are some things you should know about AbdAllah Masaar (not Nasar) - he is an Ansari who was part and parcel of the Umma Party.
The Umma Party is the party which spearheaded Sudan's 'independence' from the Anglo-Egyptian Condominium and whose founder the late great Imam AbdelRahman Al-Mahdi came up with the slogan 'Sudan for the Sudanese'.
The Umma Party and the Ansar have always had conflicting relations with Egypt - do some research on the period 1986-1989 when we had a democratically elected government dominated by the Umma Party and presided over by Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi and the evidence shall be clear...
It is extremely ironic that Mr Al-Mahdi has now become the darling of Cairo's Sudan specialists - he is a true politician and the real power-brokers in Egypt 'do not trust him'.
Mr Masaar was co-opted by the National Congress Party to weaken the Umma Party first by forming and heading a splinter faction, and he received a Ministerial portfolio for these efforts.
And when that role was fulfilled he joined the ruling National Congress Party.
He remains an Ansari (the sect which reveres and follows Sudan's Mahdi).
And the Ansar, as opposed to the Unionists (many of whom are no longer with us) are suspicious of Egypt and they refer to history - to the invasion of 1820, to Al-Azhar's excommunication of them, to the Anglo-Egyptian re-conquest in 1899 and the tens of thousands who were massacred at the battle of Omdurman...
The Ansar and their leaders were unsupportive of AbdelNasser and the military take-over of power in Egypt and even met with Israelis at the time who asked them to politically de-stabilise Egypt.
So I would take the rosy statements Mr Masaar makes about Sudanese-Egyptian relations with a big pinch of salt...
Yasser Arman, who came second in the last Presidential elections which he eventually boycotted makes similarly rosy statements about Egypt - but all intelligent people know the contrary to be true - it's an Egyptian program broadcasting to Egypt so each side has to make itself look as acceptable as possible.
The bottom line is that Egypt was not 'really' involved in the Sudan peace process - Egypt opposed and continues to oppose the right to self-determination of the South - and the government and the opposition ignored Egypt (and *Libya's*) requests and went at it on their own.
South Sudan will secede so Egyptian policy-makers should have a long look at where things have been going wrong and how things can be salvaged both with the North, and the South...
With regards to the North, intelligent Egyptians should press their government to allow the Halayeb dispute to go before international arbitration - just like when Egypt submitted its dispute over Taba with Israel to international arbitration.
ReplyDeleteIntelligent Egyptians should also press their media to stop black-face outright.
They should stop referring to Sudan either in terms of food and food security and water or 'brotherly eternal relations' because this is not the way nations see and refer to each other in the 21st Century.
The population of Sudan is some 40 million - intelligent Egyptians should strive to really engage the Sudanese in earnest and with respect and to 'accept' the different historical interpretations each party has of the other.
'Only then' plans with positive-sum outcomes can be planned, otherwise these plans shall not be sustainable - the government in Khartoum could change and then it will be back to square one...
The Southern Sudanese already have issues with Egypt - and no number of water purification plants or Egyptian trained graduates can change that...this is the 21st not 19th Century.
James Wani Igga who studied in Egypt is one of the Sudan Peoples' Liberation Movement's fiercest critic of any and everything remotely Arab.
This article offers evidence and insight and should be read:
Egypt is not just looking for Water!
Saturday 6 November 2010
By Justin Ambago Ramba
http://sudantribune.com/spip.php?article36840
@Sudanese Observer , , who told you that Adib is my darling my dear !!??
ReplyDeleteThank for the clarification though and sorry the misspelling
By the way the video includes the who episode , the 8 parts
You're welcome.
ReplyDeleteWell you quote him 'SO MUCH' you give him credibility.
What he said about Sudan and the way he said it and the fact that he never apologised and still refuses to take any calls from Sudanese journalists after Egypt lost its World Cup qualifier against Algeria in Sudan is *unforgiveable*.
@Sudanese Observer: Amr adeeb's statement's on Sudan taken as point of reference :D you really dnt knw much.
ReplyDeleteNow, going back to the main issue, I dnt get why you are so supportive of the split. I dnt knw one Sudanese who doesnt think this will eventually lead to War, many are already looking for other countries to move to in case they cant be safe. The split is serving a bunch and I dnt get how after these Israeli statements any Southern or Northern Sudan arent alarmed and questioning the Western push for the split!!
Anonymous - you display the discursive talents of a school kid.
ReplyDeleteAmr Adib's statements on Sudan defended whilst being uncorroborated - very serious from the 'Sudanese' perspective.
Have you been to Sudan?
Which Sudanese people are your point of reference?
Are you aware of the historical chronology of the conflict in South Sudan...?
Are you able to name 5 political groupings in Sudan?
Are you able to name their positions vis-a-vis the secession of South Sudan?
How many Southern Sudanese people do you know?
Or are they the contemporary 'Northerners' according to the traditional Egyptian view - dumb people who don't know what's good for them...
Myself and others like me, including many political groupings in Sudan, people who have 'paid the price' - not bystanders like you Egyptians - have come to the conclusion that either we live in peace, or we separate.
It's like having a healthy body and a localised tumour in a limb, let it go if it's hindering the rest of the body.
The complications are stemming from the deadline which the US is so adamant on meeting (for national US interests - especially in light of how badly the Democrats did in the mid-terms).
Egypt wants Sudan to stay united as it will be easier for it to build the Jonglei Canal and secure its pie in the sky water and food interests (yeah right) even if this means that Sudan as a whole remains mired in instability.
The Southerners are ready to have their own country - I'm ready to go to Juba to celebrate with them.
And please don't bring up the Israeli card since you (as an Egyptian) are the 'beneficiary' of American economic and military and trade largesse - due to your peace with Israel.
So on who knows 'much':
Have you been to Sudan?
Which Sudanese people are your point of reference?
Are you aware of the historical chronology of the conflict in South Sudan...?
Are you able to name 5 political groupings in Sudan?
Are you able to name their positions vis-a-vis the secession of South Sudan?
How many Southern Sudanese people do you know?
@Sudanese Observer: if you want to make an important figure out of Adeeb then plz go ahead. As an Egyptian I find it laughable that outsiders take wt he says so seriously. We even make fun of those among us who take him as a point of reference for serious issues.
ReplyDeleteNow, my question to you was a real question and instead of replying, you mocked me and directed questions at me as if you are interrogating me.
Since you mentioned my style, I will say this to you, you are almost always attacking and defensive, even when someone is asking a simple question and seeking information. My life, my friends, my contacts and my visits and none of your business. I thought you are worthy of asking, to get to know your point of view since you come here and talk over and over about Sudan this and Sudan that. I really do not get how could the Sudanese ppl be so willing to put the future of their kids and grand kids into such a risk, how could your immediate so-called gains could turn you blind to the inevitable fate!! I withdraw my question as Im no longer interested in conversing with someone with that attitude. For the sake of Sudan, I do hope there are less ppl with that mentality and attitude of urs.
another step in the plane started last century , to dismantle the muslim unity then divide every country on ethnic , religiuos bases ,
ReplyDeletesame old divide and conquer and we arent smart enough.
Zeinobia: Why aren't you engaged uptill now?
ReplyDeleteIn reference to Anonymous' reply to Africanist:
ReplyDeleteGood tactical move to withdraw from a topic you quite obviously don't know much about - you are unable to offer 'any' sources, evidence or points of reference.
Our kids and grandkids?
Surely you're referring to your kids and grandkids what with your growing population and finite water resources...
Our kids and grandkids are our problem - a generation of them have grown up as orphans in 'our' civil wars - you worry about Rafah and the Delta and the QIZ and all that and we will see to our own issues.
Kareem - are you aware that Sudan *was not* part of any Caliphate or 'Islamic State' or part of Egypt until Muhammad Ali's invasion in 1820 which can hardly be called Islamic?
If you see disunity as a problem how about respecting peoples' ethnicities and cultures?
Yawn - next...
You gotta admit sometimes he is very hilarious, politically wise he's a douche
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOa5Std1-rs
@Zol: Your problem along with the 2 others commenting usually here about Sudan is that you always assume we are the enemy. You arent God, you dnt know me, so dnt assume things or assume stuff you are always away from the truth. Point simply is that I was seeking the point of view of Africanist, despite my differences I really wanted to listen to how he/she sees this. All I got is getting mocked from him and them from you, how are you involved in this is beyond me, I didnt reply or write to you in the first place but well. So, since you 2 have no respect for others I no longer care about the opinion I was seeking. In fact, Im pretty sure with shitty mentalities like what you have exposed here, Sudan is doomed for sure.
ReplyDeleteNo, your kids and grand kids arent your problem only, cuss at us as much as you want but we have hosted some of them. So, no you are wrong we do have in invested interest since well, when shit hits the fan in Sudan and God knows this happens a lot we have a turn out of Sudanese fleeing their country.
Learn to stop being aggressive to others w/o a reason at the end of the day we do not knw each other in person to have any pre-conceptions and the whole idea of conversing here is to exchange ideas and may be see things from a different angel. This is not a platform for you to talk about your anti-Egyptian anti-Sudan Propaganda ect so, chill and take a pill bec your ways are hurting your cause.
OK fair point.
ReplyDeleteI apologise for dissing your discourse and if it got personal.
When we post, at least we use noms de plume - there are so many Anonymous comments it can get confusing sometimes.
The issue is not enmity - the issue is discourse and the superficial way 'engagement' if any occurs.
The first thing that caught our attention on this blog was the Algeria-Egypt media war.
The rantings of Amr Adib and Ibrahim Hegazy caused huge damage to relations - to the extent that the former Egyptian Ambassador to Khartoum was summoned by the Foreign Ministry.
Ibrahim Hegazy had the decency to apologise not once but twice for any hard feelings caused by his statements which he said were in the heat of the moment.
Amr Adib refused to apologise, moreover he refuses to take any calls from any Sudanese journalists.
The days following the fiasco every single newspaper and every single reporter in both Khartoum and Juba commented on the arrogance and disrespect to both Sudan and its people that the Egyptian media have had and continue to have...
A video on youtube went viral showing the Sudanese in pitch blackface that was deeply offensive to us...
And all of this was defended on this blog...until an Egyptian showed up who is married to a black woman who said that yes racist attitudes do persist in Egypt.
The issue is not with racism per se, there are idiots everywhere but with its 'tolerance' especially in the media in Egypt...
Educated Egyptians should know better...
And the persistence of this racism does 'nothing' for Egypt's grassroots interests with Nile Basin States, including Sudan.
This is one thing we have been trying to highlight and this is why I mentioned Amr Adib.
He is not fit to be one of Egypt's most prominent faces in the Arabic speaking media.
I little bit of recognition goes a long way.
Secondly we have been trying to highlight that there is a lot more to Sudan-Egypt relations than the rosy slogans and monolithic view that many Egyptians have been spoon-fed.
ReplyDeleteWe consider Muhammad Ali and his dynasty to be usurpers and occupiers and bad people - and any reference to their period of dominance up till 1956 as evidence of our shared history is misplaced.
South Korea does not consider its occupation by Japan during the Second World War to be a period of 'oneness' but of occupation.
When Egyptian journalists such as Ahmad Mansour refer to Sudan's independence struggle as 'Egypt giving Sudan away' or 'Egypt losing Sudan' it is extremely offensive - granted Yousry Fouda doesn't speak in those terms.
Accepting diametrically opposed views of a common history should not be so difficult.
And thirdly with regards to the 1959 Agreement which paved the way for Egypt's dam in Aswan we consider it to be unfair, especially the dam since Sudan got the negative transboundary impacts and none of the benefits...
We feel, and we are justified in this belief, that Egyptians know very little about us and like other Arabs - especially those of the Levantine they tend to generalise greatly.
Generalisation doesn't work with a nation that is as diverse as Sudan...
So to answer your questions:
'We' are supportive of the split because 'we' are the ones who gave 'our' lives trying to force the country to remain as one.
It is not possible to 'force' people to change their aspirations.
If the peoples of South Sudan want to fulfil their historical promise and have their own country - so be it.
The Sudanese people did not all 'leave' during the fiercest battles of the civil war which was the longest in Africa.
North Sudan is a lot more sophisticated than you might think.
'Our' reasons differ from 'yours'.
There is no 'threat' to successive generations of Sudanese, however there might be a threat to successive generations of Egyptians given 'your' water scarcity.
I assume you're not the same Anonymous who ranted about what and how much Egypt 'gave' Sudan, as if it were for free and as if that gives him or whoever a sense of entitlement.
'We' completely reject that.
'Our' President, who I didn't vote for by the way - served in 'your' war with Israel
http://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/boutique/livres_1_al-bashir-darfour-la-contre-enquete__er-l0034.html
'We' sacrificed and got nothing so that 'you' could build 'your' dam in Aswan...
So whilst we understand Egypt's water-paranoia, as 'stakeholders' who have paid a hefty price in 'our' blood and sweat, we have made up our own mind as to how the future of South Sudan shall progress.
I hope this answers your question.
Mohamed Ali is shared history.. i dunno why you make him as example of him as the Egyptian opressor who killed sudanese. big news, he slaughtered twice as many egyptians every day and he wasn't even Egyptian..he was Alabanian and his offspring were alabanian/turkish/balan whatever but they didn't have a shred of Egyptian blood in them..that's why the 1952 officers kept bragging[and still do] about Mohamed Nagib was the first Egyptian since Cleopatra..so shared history of very dark and tyrannical time for both people. The guy was a butcher and I don't think any one can argue that.
ReplyDeletewhy the fuck care about Adib and his stupid rants..the guy is mental, I swear algerians and it seems Sudanese too[didnt know that] care about him more than Egyptians..who gives a toss, why do you expect an apology from a mental? . Personanlly I hardly ever watched his programme and have no idea what shite he said to offend you guys, anywho..he's history now after getting the boot for spilling the beans. as for Mansour,..well, you have to understand his background. I've seen a show were he mentioned something daft about Egypt "giving up" Sudan but the guy is an islamist and probably a borderline-wahabi-nutter so he speaks not out of imperialistic beliefs but caliphaite-salfi ideology in that all 'muslim' countries must be united..he doesn't really mean that Sudan belongs to Egypt but morealong the lines of like we all belong to Mecca..eh, well.. another nutter, should we really make a fuss about whatever codswallop that he or the other mentals utter?
Fast-forward from Muhammad Ali to Farouk who many Egyptians are fond of - needless to say its their prerogative - but reference to his window-dressing sovereignty as reference of oneness is wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't know whether Egyptians knew more about Sudan back then when there was no widespread media and a common politico-legal scope or today where there is widespread media and separate politico-legal scopes.
An Egyptian colleague of mine once tried to convince me that Sudan's independence was at Egypt's behest - so it's not just Mansour who seems to have a lot of chips on his shoulders.
OK Mansour's an Islamist - what about Heikal the Secularist who caused deep offence amongst the Ansar when he recently negated documented judicial hearings in Khartoum and said Al-Imam Al-Hadi Al-Mahdi died not by being shot by a border guard, but by eating either poisoned or booby-trapped mangoes from Kassala!!!
And he refused to take calls from the Imam's offspring.
And this in turn precipitated a visit by the Egyptian Consul to Presidential Advisor Dr Al-Sadiq Al-Hadi Al-Mahdi.
There's a trend there if you haven't already seen it...
What offended us the most was the defensive stance some Egyptians took vis-a-vis Adib...
And I've been told 'exactly' the same by an Egyptian I know 'ya ustaz inta...' referring to my educational qualifications 'Amr Adib eh..?' - well why are you allowing rubbish to be broadcast to millions of homes in the name of your very special capital city and your country???
Former Parliamentary Speaker and President (if I'm not mistaken) in the interim period after Sadat was assassinated said on an interview in Sudan tv before his death that 'without Sudan Egyptians will eat each other'.
I respect the fact that he came from a very different generation - but many Sudanese do not appreciate that 'sense of entitlement':
- because we were one country (through occupation) and
- we have cultural ties (with some parts of Sudan) and
- Sudan has a huge agricultural potential...
Sudan = Egypt's food security.
Tell me where and when countries refer to each other in these terms.
It's tiring from our side to be told to 'ignore' Amr Adib and 'ignore' blackface...
Why don't you do something about it so these things don't remain 'issues'?
And finally a put a question to you:
Do you support the submission of the dispute over the Halayeb triangle to international arbitration or not? Why?
hahaha..Heikal! alright.. i know many Egyptians respect him but personally I think he is a hypocrite lying bastard...not only when it comes to Sudanese issues but to everything, I mean the guy is a pro-liar(kinda like st.paul)
ReplyDeleteAdib's late programme(RIP..boohoo) wasn't on national telly.It was on Orbit netowrk which isn't even free-to-air sat channel..it's subscription-only and at one time under the facade of 'democracy and freedom' they were letting everything run wild on the nilesats, crazy airhaeds talking rubbish and weird semi-erotic crap , at one point I'dn't have been surprised if I found porn channels on them-unfortunately that never happened.:D anyways, AFAIK orbit is owned by a lebanese/saudi group but not entirely sure about that but those channels aren't about their identity or 'nationality', its about shit that sellsand makes money..so if an airhead goes nuts on air and brings in ads then that's great..doesn't matter(to owners) if that retard causes a diplomatic crisis.
Egyptians, I believe, are not realy fond of Farouq..but they are yearning for a past when life was easier and people respected each other and obviously they were more freedoms. but not love for Farouq himself, especially many who seemingly have a shinning for monarchry weren't even born then or were very young to remember..but you see, people read books about that time, see the classic films and indeed life was better then, it wasn't great but compared to Mubarak's 3 decades, even hell can be appealing[explains rising suicide rates?) but Farouq was a British puppet. Egypt back then wasn't technically sovereign..the 1922 independence was just a sham to keep the people subdued and avoid riots and protests- kinda like when the Romans granted Egyptians Roman citizenship and making them 1st class citizens and the Egyptians were the only people in the empire to have that 'privilege'just like the citizens of Rome but were the Egyptians really treated as 1st class romans? of course not..it was just a title to keep the wheat production steady and feeding the empire[imagine that, we Egyptians used to supply the entire holy roman empire with wheat]. Before the 52 revolution, Egypt was just as occupied as Sudan ..only Sudan was officially occupied and Egypt was a 'protectorate' which is a fancy word for occupation that keeps cotton arriving at the textile factories in lancashire.
No, I do not support taking Halyeb to international court.. I support a referendum on which the people of Halayeb decide where they belong. Why..because whatever the ruling of that court ;it will leave a bitterness on whichever side the court rules against, so it's not healthy solution. I don't like the Taba comparison Sudanese usually make because this is different. Sinai was occupied etc we all know the hostory and for both countries, the rederendum is the best solution.. whatever the people living there choose will not leave a grudge because it's their decision. It;s a wound that has been left to fester for so long and has to be dealth with soon but..is that likely to happen in the near future? no ..why? because there are shitheads in both countries.
And what about blackface in recent Egyptian films?
ReplyDeleteThe referendum proposal is reasonable - but do you think those in power in Egypt will be open-minded enough to accept it?
Egypt's current regime refuses to even discuss the question of sovereignty over Halayeb point blank...
They oppose the self-determination of the peoples of South Sudan 'in principle' - over which much blood has been shed...
Also Halayeb has been under virtual siege - like Gaza - apart from the politically induced malnutrition - interim measures would be needed to lay the groundwork for a free and fair referendum - and this would necessitate third party mediation and this would be open to political manipulation...
Whereas there is a long and well established track record in international arbitration over border disputes...
Apparently Western countries encouraged Egypt to militarily annex Halayeb in the aftermath of Sudan's horrendous regional policy in the 90's and that attempt on President Mubarak's life.
You're right to describe it as a wound that's been left to fester because Sudan's opposition and civil society view the situation in Halayeb as an affront to the dignity of the nation - the peoples of Halayeb in Halayeb are living in a virtual open air prison, Sudanese civil society activists from Halayeb are incarcerated without trial in Egypt and two died under torture...
I dunno know this blackface thing? I'm not exactly a movie buff especially those new rubbish productions, I saw your other comments about it before, something viral on youtube, can you please give me youtube links? but if it's related to skin colour or steroetyping, this has been apparent in egyptian films towards Sudanese and Nubains for as long as the industry existed. It reflects racism in the middle and uppermiddle class, particulary in Cairo. I'm not arguing that racism never existed in the Egyptian society..but it isn't the extreme hatetype racism but the lesser ridicule type. nonetheless it's very ugly and requires proper education.
ReplyDeleteNah, those in power- Mubarak will never accept anything diplomatic when it comes Halayeb nor will any other despot fuck for that matter. They don't care for the people there or anywhere, they don't care for anyone. Only a democratically elected government or president will consider a referendum- and since that's not likely to happen in the foreseeable future, it's the responsibilty of the Sudanese oarty to take it to international court, demand either a referendum or a once and for all ruling.. this will certainly cause a little diplomatic thing between the 2 countries but it will be for a short while.. they both have major interests together which they can't afford to risk.
I dunno if Western powers(USA) encouraged him, might have given him the go-ahead thumbs but i don't think they actually encouraged him. Probably went something like before Saddam invaded Kuwait."we will not interfere" assuring, only in the Halayeb case they actually kept their word didn't interfere. I will tell you one thing, those Islamsits made a hige mistake when they tried to assassinate him.. it was recklessly planned and a complete fiasco, they should have planned it better and used plastic explosives.
@Africanist
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Anonymous concerning Muhammad Ali.
I think that Egypt was cursed because of him. Although many Egyptians consider him as the founder of Modern Egypt, it is not true at all. Egypt had a very strong economy before him. For his own glory he fought against all his neighbours: Sudan, Al Saud, Irak, Ottoman Empire. At the end he gave away Levant in exchange of the right to keep Egypt in his family. He started military conscription in Egypt which is a curse in my opinion. He even used to say that a man needs only one eye to be a soldier.
Concerning Amr Adib, it seems that most of those who wtch his program are non-Egyptians Arabs (I didnt even know him before Egypt-Algeria problem because some Algerian friends told me about what he said) Some it is you who should stop watching him. You give him legitimacy by watching.
Concerning the Former Parliamentary Speaker and President, do you really know him?
His name is Prof. Sufi Abu-Taleb. He loved Sudan as much as he loved Egypt. He was exiled there 2 years during Nasser's era. His brother-in-law was Sudanese. He was removed by Hosni Mubarak because of three points:
- Union with Sudan
- Codification of Islamic Law
- Legislative elections
He wanted to create an economic union with Sudan on a fair ground which would have made Egypt to change its policy and recognize implicitly its previous mistakes (Aswan Dam, recognition of Sudan contribution to 1973 war...)
He even created an association called Sons of the Nile Valley.
Concerning the racism problem: Egyptians have become very racists because of their miserable lives. How many Egyptian-Sudanese couples are there now compared to before? FYI, Levant countries are far more racists (I know it is not a justification, but it is contagious). I do feel ashame because of such behaviour. It is mainly due to ignorance and lack of education and awareness.
I think that the worst thing ever that happened to Sudan (and Egypt) was British occupation. They brainwashed people with nationalism that never existed before. They made Sudanese think that Egyptian was colonizing them while they were both of them under occupation. Egyptian regime at the time was not even Egyptian (Albanian descent).
Yes I do know him and I respect him although I think he came from a long gone generation which is out of touch with the realities of today... Maybe 'some' of those in his generation would accept his sense of entitlement to Sudan's food potential - but 'we' need to be convinced and provided evidence of 'win-win' outcomes.
ReplyDeleteThe contemporary discourse is about interests not emotions.
There is no such thing as a 'union between Sudan and Egypt' - there was the 'takamul' or complimentarity project which was both reasonable and win-win and for once tilted the balance of benefits in Sudan's favour but this was shattered first when President Sadat's life was taken and secondly when Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi was elected Prime Minister of Sudan.
He single-handedly rescinded all agreements and pacts made with Egypt, just because they had been made by the previous regime (and because of successive historical grievances that the Ansar bear against Egypt), and relations have never been the same ever since.
That is why he is deeply mistrusted by the Egyptian nukhba, even if he spends many months during the year in Madinat Nasr and even if he tries to make penance by giving lectures in Cairo on Sudanese affairs...
Yes we have commonalities, but we also have differences and it is important to recognise them.
Whether we like it or not Muhammad Ali tried to 'Egyptianise' Sudan administratively and this was a mistake.
And when Egyptians refer to commonalities with the Sudanese they always refer to that period of occupation - the Brits were not the ones who told Muhammad Ali to invade and occupy Sudan...
As for Amr Adib, he speaks 'on behalf of' the Egyptian people - so the onus is on you to sort him out or condemn him.
And as for the Levant we are 'extremely' aware of their racism and many of us feel nothing in common with them, in spite of the common language and feel that we have more in common with our neighbours in Ethiopia and Eritrea.
Dr Garang used to marvel at the Northern Sudanese and say why do you want to be second class Arabs when you can be first class Africans...
That being the case it is not the Levant that stresses its 'brotherly' ties with the Sudanese, it is Egypt that does so and what we are saying is clear - you educated Egyptians should do something and 'put a stop' to blackface and racism in 'your media'. Simple.
So sakrquraysh - do you support international arbitration over the Halayeb dispute?
Why?
I do not support international arbitration over Halayeb. I doubt that our current regime will try to find any solution for this issue. They have a policy to ignore a problem they cannot or dont want to solve.
ReplyDeleteI am amazed by the anti-Egyptian resentment that exists in Sudan. I will not defend the Egyptian regime since it is the one that led to the current situation, starting with Gamal Abdelnasser when he sent Salah Salem to deal with Sudan and what he did there (what a shame!), to Hosni Mubarak who deals with Sudan in a way that no wise man would approve.
Since I am not a jurist, nor a historian, I am not even sure which side might win such a case, would it be presented at The Hagues.
And a referendum would create an anti-Halayeb resentment in the country that will not be chosen by Halayeb people.
I think a solution would be to give Halayeb people both citizenships, exempt them of conscription in both countries, share economic revenues (oil...) between Egypt and Sudan, create a free economic zone. This might be utopia (in fact it is) with current regime in Egypt.
You're amazed by the anti-Egyptian resentment that exists in Sudan..:
ReplyDeleteImagine for one second that you were an intelligent, educated, middle-class Sudanese person.
How would you feel towards a country whose media pokes fun at your culture, accent, skin-tone?
How would you feel towards a country whose media deals in a superficial and outdated manner with the realities on the ground of your country?
How would you feel towards a country whose educated class talk of bonds forged through historical links that were imposed on your country unjustly?
How would you feel towards a country that over-stresses its 'brotherly ties' with your country and people whilst not really knowing or recognising your country's cultures, history and achievements?
How would you feel towards a country whose educated class (although this might be slowly changing) believes it has a sense of entitlement in the agricultural potential of your country, whilst all major joint projects (particularly the Aswan Dam) have been to the benefit of that country and at the expense of yours..?
And last but not least, how would you feel towards a country that marched in and occupied a disputed territory that is inhabited by your compatriots and kin folk whilst your own country's armed forces were engaged in a war to impose 'unity' on the South of your country - which is a cause the same occupying country supports?!
I know the stereotype of Sudanese people that the Egyptian media likes to hash and re-hash is that we're naive simpletons - but unfortunately for you - we're anything but that.
The current regime in Egypt created a time-bomb in Halayeb - which is a virtual open-air prison and the Sudanese 'will not' be appeased until Egyptian troops leave Halayeb.
Your solution is extremely Utopian - just like the Confederation solution - what about the people in Halayeb who are not located in the occupied territory - should they also become Egyptian citizens?
International arbitration is the only solution where two sides have diametrically opposing views - only juridic third party mediation can offer solutions which would be binding on both sides.
If Egypt could resort to the status quo before its illegal military annexation and occupation of Halayeb - life for the people of Halayeb and that region could return to normalcy and more sustainable forms of engagement could be entered into.
I was amazed because I was not aware how far Egyptians went in their humiliation of Sudanese people.
ReplyDeleteDid you go to Egypt recently?
There is currently an issue: ignorance. Ask any Egyptian living in Cairo about people living in Upper Egypt, Sinai or Bedouins, he/she will reply with a joke; the worst is that he/she might be proud of that. I understand that you feel upset by such behaviour which is nothing but shameful, but it is not limited to Sudanese people.
Egyptians know nothing about their neighbours, they are not taught anything in schools.
I want to be clear; I never intended to defend any position. I try to understand current issues and try to find a solution on short and long terms. The problem is that as long as the current Egyptian regime exists, nothing will change.
I do love Sudan as much as I love Egypt for personal reasons: my late grandfather was exiled there during Nasser's era and my late father worked there in the 80's too. They always had very high opinion of Sudanese people. I was lucky to have such an environment.
I might be very utopian concerning Sudan, maybe because I really consider Sudanese people as my fellow citizens, wether they are from the north or the south.
Sudanese shall have all the rights in Egypt as if they were Egyptians: that is my point of view.
You blame Egytians for not recognizing Halayeb as a Sudanese land; why dont you blame Sudanese president for not fighting over it?
Well for one thing the current Egyptian regime's timing couldn't have been more treacherous - in the 'midst' of the North-South civil war and where proxies were financed, under Albright's orders to take over Khartoum from Ethiopia and Uganda - Egyptian troops came marching in and occupied Halayeb!
ReplyDeleteGranted Sudan's regime at the time was implicated in a heinous attempt on President Mubarak's life but in the long run I don't think the occupation of Halayeb will prove to be a wise decision...
There were skirmishes, and believe it or not there are 'still' Sudanese troops who are stationed in Halayeb and who have refused to leave - as if they leave they won't be allowed back in - but the war front in the South could not bear any sacrifice and the situation was left as is...
The Sudanese government's position relies on the Security Council Statement in the 50's which condemns any attempt to militarily annex Halayeb and the President has on many occasions reiterated Sudan's claim to sovereignty over Halayeb - most recently in a political rally in Port Sudan, the capital of the Red Sea State, of which Halayeb is an integral, albeit illegally occupied part.
The national electoral commission with its international observers recognised Halayed as an electoral constituency of the Red Sea State as in the previous multi-party elections in the 50's and in 1986...
And the opposition and civil society in Sudan constantly bring up the issue of Halayeb, particularly the Eastern Front, (Rashaida) Free Lions and Beja Congress whose kin folk are imprisoned in Halayeb...
Apparently President Mubarak understood that there was some kind of a deal between himself and the Sudanese President over Halayeb and the Sudanese President's statement in April upset President Mubarak.
In any case the situation is bad and unsustainable and international arbitration is the only way out and many 'Arab' States have gone the route of arbitration successfully including Qatar, Tunisia and Libya...
I wouldn't say Egyptians go out of their way to humiliate Sudanese people with that particular intent.
ReplyDeleteWe are saying 'there is a problem in the Egyptian media with racism and blackface'.
There is a huge gap between the sugar-coated slogans of commonalities which so many Egyptians spout and how much Egyptians really know about the Sudanese.
The way you portray black Africa is hurting your interests - period.
You mentioned other neighbours - I say 'presumably' there isn't as complex a relationship with the other neighbours so the onus is on rectifying the grass-roots understanding in order to move forward.
Why hasn't Zahi Hawass ever visited Sudan, bearing in mind the fact that Sudan has more pyramids than Egypt and is archaeologically fascinating for Swiss, Polish, Canadian and French specialists?
Would it have something to do with the skin-tone of the pharaohs in Sudan and the fact that it is different from that of the Egyptian populace?
Why hasn't Egypt's Minister of Culture ever visited Sudan or met Sudan's literary greats such as Professor AbdAllah Al-Tayyib Al-Majthoub who was feted and hosted by King Hassan II of Morocco on various occasions?
You blame the regime for everything - I say that people have to start taking the initiative and do things on their own.
Yes I have been to Egypt recently and I have been to Egypt many times and the issue is not my own little experiences but the general trend and the evidence, and what I see when I switch on the tv...
When I'm in the Gulf I don't hesitate to wear my traditional Sudanese clothes at any moment, over there, to the people it says that I am Sudanese, I could be rich or poor, educated or uneducated.
I don't need to tell you the negative prejudices that Egyptians have in this regard.
So our respective views on 'urbanism' and 'modernity' differ - to us what's important is what's in the head, to you it might be what's on - or not on the head...
This is actually not that big a deal, but it contradicts slogans of 'oneness' and 'fraternity'.
I'm not surprised by your father and grandfather's experiences in Sudan and I too have relatives for whom Cairo was a safe-haven. But this type of engagement is limited.
Many Egyptians I know say exactly what you've said - that Egyptians discriminate against each other - I say to them - that's your problem to deal with 'as Egyptians' - but 'we are not Egyptians' we are 'the other' so you should sort out the way in which you portray and interact with 'the other'.
Did you watch the AlJazeera documentary on Sudanese refugees in Israel?
Quite a few were extremely bitter when recounting their experiences in Egypt...
So let's not be Utopian - Egypt has little commonalities with South Sudan and they consider themselves much more at home in Nairobi or Kampala than Cairo...
Your population is 80 million and your government is hardly able to provide for all of those people, let alone more people from Sudan - and this was the root of the problem that ended in the massacre at Mustafa Mahmoud.
Talk is easy and cheap (no offence) - admiration must be built on something - Sudanese-Egyptian fraternity cannot be built on love of Egypt's greatness but it must be built on a knowledge and understanding of the Sudanese, and their culture, achievement, lands etc...
@Sakr: "There is currently an issue: ignorance. Ask any Egyptian living in Cairo about people living in Upper Egypt, Sinai or Bedouins, he/she will reply with a joke; the worst is that he/she might be proud of that. I understand that you feel upset by such behaviour which is nothing but shameful, but it is not limited to Sudanese people.
ReplyDeleteEgyptians know nothing about their neighbours, they are not taught anything in schools."
Can we plz drop the generalisations. Egyptians have been suffering from a deteriorating education and arent as cultured as they used to be. That is done on purpose but doesnt mean all are like how you wrote. Add to that the fact that most of us are forced to live under worsening conditions. Enough with the empty generalisations for God's sake.
A ref about Halayieb is a good idea. They shld decide, nt official Egypt and not official Sudan. If they feel they belong to Sudan I wouldnt want them to be forced to be Egyptians.
"Sudanese shall have all the rights in Egypt as if they were Egyptians: that is my point of view." I wouldnt wish that upon them not bec I dnt feel wt you feel but bec we as in Egyptians dnt really have rights. We are treated in our own country as 10th class citizens in many cases. Its as if this is not our country but we are imposing on those running it. So, for wt you wrote to happen, this will entail us getting our rights first so that we are able to extend them to others.
I think it's safe to generalise and say that Egyptians are very ignorant when it comes to anything Sudanese - there's loads of empirical evidence.
ReplyDelete@Zol: I find your demand that all Egyptians know every thing about Sudan naive and unrealistic to say the least. Not all Sudanese know every thing about us and that knowledge isnt the point here. Im sure that your American friends, now best friends to the South dnt knw much about Sudan. Its sad but them, the Chinese, and all others waiting to get their share from the Sudanese cake know only as much as needed to serve their interests. As for us in Egypt, we might not know much, we might have shitty officials and their policies (like you we didnt elect them) but at least a good percentage of Egyptians really care for your country and your ppl, away from our own interests in your country and economic and political calculations as a state.
ReplyDelete@Africanist
ReplyDeleteI am sorry to say that you think in a tribal way. You think that nationalism is a pride while it is a curse. You blame Egyptians for not respecting Sudanese people, and dont care about the fact that they dont respect each other. Well, dont expect anything to change as long as you think that you are the "other". Dont ask for something that cannot be given (respect) since it doesnt exist.
You blame Egyptians and I blame the regime (and I can prove what I say)
Then you talk about Zahi Hawwass and Egyptian misister of culture. Who are they? Arent they nothing more than a part of the current regime?
There is a something in human being that is amazing. A man might accept a humiliation from a stranger, but he would never accept it from someone he knows well and consider as equal. Arab and African people are exactly like that. They never accept any mistake from each other; but they accept to be exploited by strangers. Be proud, Sudan is already exploited by China, Iran and Turkey. Soon Israel will join the club.
Yes I blame the regime for everything because it is its fault that the whole region reached the current state. Unlike many countries, Egypt has a long history of being a heaven: Greeks, Arabs, Italians, Berbers, Turks, French, Africans, Iranians etc... It always kept an identity linked to the geography (due to the Nile Valley) and not to the people. So yes, Egypt and Sudan have ties that are stronger than you can imagine. Egypt and Ethiopia have ties that cannot be broken. The current regime is the worst ever. Egypt is now orphan with all its neighbours trying to bury it alive, and the current regime is paid for that.
@anonymous
I exagerated when I said that all Egyptians are ignorant concerning their neghbours, you are right. But it is not far from the truth.
but at least a good percentage of Egyptians really care for your country and your ppl, away from our own interests in your country and economic and political calculations as a state.
ReplyDeleteCan you provide evidence for that???
The difference between the Americans and Chinese is that they are big powers that are distant from Sudan and they don't approach Sudan with a 'sense of entitlement' which many Egyptians believe they have - even Zeinobia with her likening Egypt to the United States and Sudan to Cuba or Mexico!
Even the Chinese regocnise the need for Soft Power and have opened up Confucius Centres in Sudan and have gone about observing and studying Sudan's culture, flora and fauna...
The Chinese recognise something Sudanese as being Sudanese - for example they are studying Sudanese herbal remedies - there is no way they can blur lines and entitle themselves to anything Sudanese based on a skewed, one-sided interpretation of a shared history.
A Chinese woman learned to sing and dance a 'dobet' in the Nubian pentatonic style (they also have the pentatonic musical ladder in China) and she won over 'all' the Sudanese.
Muhammad Mounir and Mustafa Qamar shamelessly 'steal' Sudanese songs and market them as 'Nubian folklore' when the authors of the poems and lyricists are still living in Sudan and a law suit was filed but there is the issue of 'forum non conveniens' or which courts have the jurisdiction to rule on these intellectual property issues.
This is why education, knowledge and acknowledgement is important - particularly in this day and age when information is literally at the tips of our hands.
We never demanded that all Egyptians know everything about Sudan - but once more we're looking at the world for examples and not speaking out of the blue.
After long histories of war and conflict the French and British, French and Germans and South Koreans know much more about each other than what the Egyptians know about the Sudanese...
That there is a huge 'breach' between the sugar-coated slogans touted by Egyptians of the 'special ties' and the real on the ground knowledge and understand by Egyptians, even the Egyptian 'nukhba' - is fact.
And yes this might be traced back to the policy of Egypt's government to face North in all directions and pay lip service to the dirty South...
And when you compare Egypt's system of government with Sudan's please recognise the fact that we have had 3 civilian, democratically elected governments and we have a constitution that grants more political freedoms than Egypt's - these are the words of Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi who is an opposition leader in Sudan...
Anyway can you tell me which Egyptian political party has constructive policies towards Sudan because last time I checked I couldn't find any...
I failed to find any information on Al-Wafd - and Al-Imam Al-Sadiq Al-Mahdi got in trouble when he met with Egypt's opposition - even though Egyptian officials meet with Sudan's opposition and even with rebels...
There was a Presidential candidate called Turk who claimed the independence of Sudan was illegal which is the most ridiculous thing that can be said to any Sudanese person.
And there are the Nasserist Tajjamu' - enough said about Nasser's defunct Arabism (as applied to Sudan) and his crimes against the Sudanese people in Egypt's Aswan Dam...
I don't think in a tribal way I think in a realistic way and the truth of the matter is 'we' are 'the other' and we have offered ample evidence to prove that.
ReplyDeleteI think of a place where my accent is understood, my national dress respected and my skin-tone and very being is not mocked in the media...
Like I said Eritrea and Ethiopia correspond more strongly with that than Egypt - in spite of the language barriers...
I still find your blame of the regime for the actions of Egyptians to be baffling - you are belittling your own people.
And it is pitiful that you say that 'respect' doesn't exist - it might not exist where you come from but we fought Muhammad Ali's forces over it, have fought wars amongst ourselves over it and are constantly battling within society to enshrine it as a principle - and we 'demand' it from Egyptians and from any other nation.
When are where do Africans 'accept' humiliation from 'strangers' as opposed to 'people they know'.
How do you define 'knowing each other'?
What do most Egyptians know about Africa beyond the jungle stereotypes hashed and re-hashed in the Egyptian media and to what extent do most Egyptians consider themselves as being Africans?
Is not yours the 'Arab Republic'?
Hollywood stopped black-face decades ago, and your media still continues with it.
China, Iran, Turkey and Israel..??
China is the biggest investor in Sudan.
Sudan and Iran have ties but the level of investment is not very big.
Turkish companies are subcontracted in many public works projects in Sudan.
And Israel has ties with South Sudan.
And none of those countries has a 'sense of entitlement' towards Sudan, nor does the media in any of those countries mock the Sudanese people.
@The Sudanese commenters; your ignorance about understanding racism and the difference between racism and being insensitive speaks volumes.
ReplyDeleteTell me one policy that Egypt adopts that is considered racist?
Your claim that Hollywood stopped blackface in its movies is ridiculous to say the least. I wonder if you watched a fairly new movie titled Tropic Thunder
Can you recognize the black guy in the picture?
Well he is not black but white guy. Actually he is Robert Downey JR made up to look like black. Do you know that his name in the movie is Osiris which is the Egyptian God of underworld and death. Isn't that stereotyping?
How about all American food products with the blackface on their covers like Uncle Ben's rice (which I love it) and Aunt Jemima pancakes?
You really need to educate yourself first before you come and spew your hate to Egypt and Egyptians.
It's commen'tators' not commenters:
ReplyDeleteThe tolerance of black-face in the Egyptian media is racist.
The way in which black Africa and black Africans are portrayed in the Egyptian media is racist.
Whether this is a predetermined policy or not is irrelevant.
What is clear is that an omission to curtail this racism is wrong and hurts Egypt's image amongst Africans.
Morocco is a country that has black citizens.
Morocco also has a world class cinema.
Morocco however does not portray black Africans in black-face or black Africa in a negative light in the same way the Egyptian media 'consistently' does.
As a matter of fact we have watched Tropic Thunder.
In light of where Hollywood has gotten to today it is not considered to be racist as there is no wholesale denigration of blacks or any other particular race as was the case in the past - before the Second World War when blacks were always portrayed negatively - in the same manner they are portrayed in the Egyptian media 'today'.
The Wayans' Brothers played white women in 'White Chicks' and Mexican-American comedian George Lopez pokes fun at white Americans...
The Government of Mexico keeps a close eye on how Mexicans are portrayed in the US, particularly in advertising and ads have been pulled due to complaints that have been lodged.
On a side-note I don't know if the naming of 'Osiris' was meant to be negative or not, I would say that it is positive due to an age-old fascination with ancient Egypt.
As for Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima, you missed out Rastus.
If you do actually read I would recommend the following book which contextualises this type of imagery in American society.
I don't imagine a blind consumer like yourself would care too much about anything apart from that which gets gastro-intestinally ingested.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Aunt-Jemima-Uncle-Ben-and-Rastus/Marilyn-Kern-Foxworth/e/9780275951849
So, once more there are no objective parallels between the United States of America and the way its minorities are treated - and Egypt - much as you would love to see yourselves as peers of the US...
The issue is not one of hatred or enmity, as previously stated, but of mistakes and contradictions in the way Egypt portrays and engages with the significant other 'the Sudanese' - but only a person of intellect would be able to understand...
@ The Sudanese commenter (last time I checked I found out that commentator is the one who gets paid to write a comment and maybe that is your actual description). Anyway calling me names or trying to show your superiority in the English language will not work with me.
ReplyDelete"The tolerance of black-face in the Egyptian media is racist.
The way in which black Africa and black Africans are portrayed in the Egyptian media is racist.
Whether this is a predetermined policy or not is irrelevant.
What is clear is that an omission to curtail this racism is wrong and hurts Egypt's image amongst Africans".
Whose opinion is that I beg you pardon? All Sudanese people, all African people, all black people or only you with your prejudice mind?
If that is the case, what have you done as Sudanese, Africans, or blacks to protest that other than complaining about it on Zeinobia's and others blogs?
"Morocco is a country that has black citizens.
Morocco also has a world class cinema.
Morocco however does not portray black Africans in black-face or black Africa in a negative light in the same way the Egyptian media 'consistently' does."
Well if you think that Morocco's film industry is not racist and ours is, then I would not watch any Egyptian movie if I were you. I bet that would be hard for since you obviously keep watching the majority of Egyptian racist movies and did not get bothered by their racist content. By the way Moroccans love to watch our Egyptian racist movies and never complained.
Final word if you think that Egypt is a racist country why you keep visiting it many times as you mentioned in your previous boring comments?
@The Sudanese commenter; I forgot to mention that Halayeb is and will remain Egyptian.
ReplyDeleteThis is the opinion of most Africans.
ReplyDeleteGallup polls were conducted enquiring about which country Africans would like to see representing them in the Security Council on a semi-permanent basis and Egypt was not even in the top 5 - due to this sense of perceptive prejudice towards Africa by 'Egypt' - particularly the media.
And the gallup poll included Nile Basin States...
What have we done?
We have highlighted the issue in the Sudanese media, particularly the printed media and engaged relevant civil society groups in Sudan.
We have made our grievances known to members of the government.
Presidential Adviser Ghazi Al-Atabani stated on Al-Jazeera some years ago that perhaps official Egypt does not want to see the Sudanese beyond the stereotype that is perpetuated in the Egyptian media - that of the wretched, simpleton doorman...
Some people are inable to see anything beyond the length of their nose.
Racism in the Egyptian media against black Africans, black Africa and the Sudanese affects 'all' the Sudanese.
Al-Jazeera aired a documentary on Sudan and Egypt's relations, and the issue of the stereotypes of Sudanese people was a factor that was discussed so whether you admit that this is a problem and issue or not, it is.
We try to engage educated, open-minded Egyptians and we have met limited success - obviously people like you don't fall into that category and don't count.
We shall continue to highlight the issues we see as being problematic wherever we see fit and we actually do read and watch everything - whether we agree with it or not.
You should also take a page or two out of Morocco's book and learn how to respect 'the other'.
And your point on Halayeb relfects your mentality and discursive intellect - utterly pathetic.
@Zol "but at least a good percentage of Egyptians really care for your country and your ppl, away from our own interests in your country and economic and political calculations as a state.
ReplyDeleteCan you provide evidence for that???"
Can you provide evidence to the contrary? Can you provide evidence that "all" Sudanese know us, just like you are demanding from us and taking it against us? Generalisations always lead to distorted conclusions. ITA, u guys arent only showing tribal tones but more than that, you are talkng about African identity and African unity while you are constantly trying to make claims pitting us against other African countries. I really dnt take wt the 2 of you write here too serious, except for the fact that they ar evidence that the bunch of Sudanese with anti-Egyptian sentiments seem to have discovered a venue through Z blog. Other than that, nothing you wrote here was echoed by any of those I know or met in my life and Ive met loads of Africans and Sudanese and I always bring out what you post here and in fact while I point out to them my dismay from Egy performance in African they reply that they think Egy has always been playing a role and some of them pin point actual projects in their countries. I guess my issue with the 3 of you is that you cant distinguish bet wt the politicians do (none of us actually have free elections to be held accountable for the actions of our officials) and the ppl. Also, you exploit the word racism while its not wt applies to the incidents you mentioned in the cinema but hay, I guess it makes u feel better. Last but not least, Egyptians arent the enemy here they arent the ones waiting to jump in and split your country and exploit you to the fullest while at the same time supplying weapons to all side to make sure u keep on killing each other. You are free to live in a fantasy of US wants whats best for us, EU supporting the split bec it cares for human rights, China are there only for business but this doesnt hold in real life, each country comes with its own interests, its own not yours.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/24/is-massive-u-s-aid-helping-south-sudan.html#
ReplyDeleteYes we've seen that article when it was published, it's a good one.
ReplyDeleteWe've provided evidence of Egyptian former officials and prominent Egyptians in the media, including Dr Sakina expressing a sense of entitlement to Sudan's agricultural potential i.e. interests...
That flies in the face of endless, selfless love.
Some in the Evangelical Right love Israel as they believe the safeguarding of the State of Israel = the return of the Messiah and rapture and their salvation...
When some Arabs tell some Evangelical Christians 'but you don't really know Israel' - they say we love Israel anyway in spite of its precipitating the rapture...
Some Egyptians have been programmed to 'care about my country and its people' as a contingent factor in maintaining some sort of sublime pre-destiny of greatness for 'Egypt'.
We refuse to be a delusional footnote.
And once more I ask - how can one love something one knows nothing of???!
We would put money behind an objective empirical investigation into how much educated Sudanese know about Egypt and how much educated Egyptians know about Sudan having the result that not only do the educated Sudanese know more about Egypt, the educated Egyptians know very little about Sudan.
As I previously said we aren't coming from our own small, personal perspectives - you often like to showcase your personal experience - all of us have been to Egypt (there are 5 of us who comment here, some more sporadically than others) and we all have evidence of how 'ignorant' most Egyptians are of all things Sudanese...
There have been television programs filmed in Cairo by Sudanese producers and reporters that have interviewed a wide range of people - including random samples from the street as well as actors and only 2 knew anything substantial about Sudan.
You know what some of the others associated with Sudan???
Tamarind and chillies!
The African identity is a part of the Sudanese identity - do you have a problem with the African identity?
And the sense of perceptive grievance by many parts of black Africa against Egypt is there whether you admit to it, or not.
And no where is this felt more than in the Nile's Upstream and Midstream communities...
Go to the campus of Addis Abeba University, go and talk to young Southern Sudanese in Juba - you can't 'win people over' with a handful of clinics and thermal generators - Soft Power which is seeing and wanting to emulate is key...
To reiterate, I would not go by personal experience to gauge people's views - in the run-up to Sudan's last legislative and Presidential elections an electionnaire was created to help people decide which party they should vote for - we highlighted this and there's a post about it on this blog.
One of the questions was 'do you believe the 1956 Agreement should be amended?' and in the results the answer was overwhelmingly 'yes'.
If you want empirical evidence that our views aren't just those of 'a bunch' - refer back to Sudanese-Egyptian relations in the period 1986-1989 when a civilian democratically elected government was in power in Sudan...
Are you seriously trying to tell us that black-face in the Egyptian media and the caricaturisation of the Sudanese and black Africans and the perpetuation of colonialist stereotypes that have fallen out of favour in the west - is not racist???
And the line of argumentation here is confusing - initially many Egyptians thought the criticism was levelled at the government and defended it vociferously stating that the government did not have any 'racist policies'.
ReplyDeleteThe argument has now shifted to condemn the government for all the bad things in Egyptian society - particularly because it is not freely and fairly elected...
We have been saying 'what about educated Egyptians?' - where are they?
We've also posed very relevant questions about the position Egypt's opposition takes towards Sudan and have not received an answer - it's interesting to note that Dr. Al-Baradei who is seen as a saviour by some has not uttered one word about Sudan...
What you mentioned about countries having their own interests is very true - the equation becomes figuring out how to create a win-win situation through the harmonisation of interests.
An example that is not win-win is the flooding of Sudan's labour market with Egyptians, in light of Sudan's large population is not win-win - it takes away jobs from the Sudanese and causes capital flight as most Egyptians send their remittances North of the 22nd Parallel and occupied Halayeb...
The general perception in Sudan of win-win relationships is the one with China which took our oil downstream and is sharing technology in the agricultural sector, the one with Ethiopia whose dams decrease siltation in ours and whose excess electricity will be exported to Sudan and the one with Brazil who is supplies technology and know-how for ethanol production.
The relationship with Egypt is seen as not being win-win ipso-facto in light of the occupation of Halayeb and the fact that political considerations mean that Egypt will get the value added benefit of manufactured products using Sudan's raw material whilst having products that are available to the international (US-EU) markets through WTO accession, QIZ etc..
Surely our priority should be the production of value added products in Sudan, producing 'made in Sudan' not buying 'made in Egypt'.
South Korea and Japan went through a similar phase (without the global power-political dichotomy) that Sudan and Egypt are going through - and they managed to engage each other constructively and now have positive-sum relations.
And out of the countries you mentioned, none of their media insults the Sudanese people apart from Egypt.
And FYI Khartoum has a weapons embargo so it actually produces most conventional weapons whilst buying others from Belarus, China and Russia.
The only country that 'maybe' supplies weapons to both sides (North and South) is the Ukraine.
The real fantasy is not what you stated, but the refusal to acknowledge problems and issues that one finds unpalatable.
Sorry I wont read all of ur blah blah, when exactly did any one defend the gov is beyond me. Point is, you guys arent God, but you feel entitled to "read" wts in ppls minds. Believe us or not it doesnt matter. As for the article, its one example that wt you come here and claim to be facts isnt entirely true. Your country is facing huge challenges, care for that and leave us to care for our country's fate, Im sure u dnt care for us. Eid Mubarak, that is if you actually celebrate it. Salam
ReplyDelete@Hazem "How about all American food products with the blackface on their covers like Uncle Ben's rice (which I love it) and Aunt Jemima pancakes?"
ReplyDeleteThose are not examples of blackface. Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima are not real. Blackface is white actors with stereotypical black makeup. You can argue Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima are racist caricatures, but they are not blackface. They are advertising images intended to portray their brands in a positive light. Millions of black Americans buy those products and take no offence.
Oh and I suppose this isn't racist right?
ReplyDeletehttp://sudaneseoptimist.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/reason-9734-not-to-support-egypt/
This time it's safe to say DENIAL really is synonymous with Egypt.
Eid Mubarak?
ReplyDeleteWeren't we called 'pagans' by 'Anonymous'???
Eid Mubarak to all.
I never called u pagans, not me another anon may be Even for non-Muslims I wish them peace on our holiday. Adha Mubarak enough with the useless arguments from all sides, lets just say we agreed to disagree and we all remain to see wt will the future brings us, may it be better than we have all thought it would be.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you see these specific discussions as being useless?
ReplyDeleteWhat is there to agree to disagree on?
The racist and inappropriate nature of black-face in the Egyptian media?
Or the fact that Egypt's Dam at Aswan was created at the expense of the Sudanese?
Or what?
And here you have it:
ReplyDeleteEgypt is too Selfish towards South Sudan
The author: Justin Ambago Ramba. Secretary General - United South Sudan Party [USSP]
http://www.sudantribune.com/Egypt-is-too-Selfish-towards-South,37202
Hello Z, Africanist, Sudanese Observer, and everyone else. My recent post El Naschie on Sudan cites and links to this thread.
ReplyDeleteJason - and what exactly is one supposed to learn from 'El Naschie on Sudan' - opacity, slogans and more opacity.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the losses in Alexandria.
This is hot off the press and well worth pondering on:
Remember those massacred in Egypt.
http://www.sudantribune.com/Remember-those-massacred-in-Egypt,37432
The haywire parallels made between Salih's work and The Great Gasby prove that whoever made those links knows 'nothing' about African literature.
ReplyDelete