Monday, November 4, 2013

#Morsitrial : The first session big day

It is one long day as it seems , trial in New Cairo and protests all over the country. Long day indeed that needs Live blogging.



  2. "Journalists shoued 'Execute them'. #Egypt.". If anyone needed any more indication of the justice and truth of the arguments against the coup and for the restoration of legitimacy...the egyptian media are providing it. Banning Bassem, baying for execution in a trumped up trial. The scum in charge of egypt are true filth and evil. For all the faults of the MB they could have been voted out. We owe morsi the respect to support his cause in the unjust trial. That doesnt mean to vote for them in the future. perhaps they would win perhaps in time they would be a footnite in the process of democracy as other parties wax and wane. However the scum that surround that shit sissy boy have no place in Egypts politics.

  3. Mohamed Morsi is a criminal he has blood on his hands and he is a terrorist who incited violence on July 3/2013

    The families of those that were killed and tortured at el-itihadiyya should be in court and see to it that Morsi faces justice and pay for what he did

    1. Are you sure you know what you are talking about? First for him to be legally or morally responsible he has to give orders to either the police or the army to carry these killings , which he didn't. Second he could have incite his followers to kill or even confront the demonstrators which he didn't, third point if I recall correctly the majority of the deaths was from the MB. So as much as would wish the MB to go away, I think we have to be realistic about what to charge them with, On the other hand Safwat Hegazy is admitting on tape to torturing people, and the rest of the gang are on you tube inciting sit ins and resistance to authorities.

    2. In international law if you are in charge then you are responsible for atrocities committed and this was the lesson of the Nuremberg trials of the Nazis this means that the ignorant and clueless Morsi did not realize that he is responsible for the murders and inciting violence but ignorance of the law is no defense

    3. If I had a dollar for everyone on the internet I see use the term 'international law' without a clue what it means.....

      No, a leader isn't responsible for every crime committed in his country. Otherwise every leader in the world would be a criminal the first day he takes office. You are only responsible for the crimes you order committed and the regime presumably has no evidence he gave any such orders or they would have presented it by now.

      Face it people, this trial is not taken seriously in the international community. I read a lot of the more influential and serious Western publications like Foreign Policy and the Economist and it is pretty much assumed to be a farce. You can worship Sisi and Mother Egypt all you want, but the rest of the world is laughing at your banana republic and its silly little tinpot dictator. Except the ones who still care, who are more heartbroken.

    4. Oh I agree, so lets apply the same rule on the Rabaa and Nahda killings. Who was in charge and responsible according to your international law?

    5. Mr ignorant aka Walker even Henri Kissinger could be arrested for assisting the Junta in Chile in 1973 and this is why he limited his international travel and he knows that very well and if he ends in a jurisdiction where there is a warrant for his arrest because of the crimes in Chile he will be arrested and he will have to face justice and all it takes in this day and age human rights lawyers watching the coming and going of the criminal and terrorist Morsi and he can end at the Hague to face the music

      You are ignorant

    6. Ok, there is so much wrong in that stuff it is hard to know quite where to start.

      In the first place, Kissinger wasn't charged with a crime. The court wanted him as a witness, not suspect except in one civil case, which was dismissed.

      In the second place, even that went nowhere and he never testified much less was he arrested.

      In the third place, the crime they wanted to question him about had nothing to do with 'incitement'. I really have no idea why you think these things are remotely related. You might as well argue Morsi is a criminal because a random kid ate an ice pop in Caracas, they are about as related as this Kissinger stuff.

      In the forth place, you are the one supporting a coup that has no problem murdering supporters of the elected president, so you have a lot of nerve and not a lot of sense to bring up Chile.

      In the 5th place, even if the charges against Morsi made any sense they wouldn't be the sort of crimes the Hague would deal with so that isn't remotely plausible.

      And in English it is spelled Henry, not Henri. That would be French.

    7. Walker aka the demagogue: There is already a case filed against Obama and members of the criminal and terrorist group MB for the murder of the activists in late 2012 and for inciting violence in Morsi's meeting with el-Sisi on July 3 2013 and if you can read Arabic here
      And here is a copy of the statute of the international criminal court

      The criminal and terrorist Morsi seems to be unaware that he can be arrested and tried at the Hague
      And you are silly and boring so it is Henry big f*ckin deal

      You are ignorant and shame on you

    8. Rofl. Yes, I am sure there is case filed against Obama in glorified mental hospital that is Egypt now. Just like Bassem Yousuf, Muhammad el Baradei and God knows how many others trying to do the decent thing. My point is that the case is bogus, not that somebody in the Egyptian judicial system won't suck up to the regime by trying whoever looks at them cross-eyed.

      And I am actually familiar with the content of the Rome Statue, having studied international law at the university level here in the US. Which apparently makes one of us, since the document you linked to nowhere says that incitement to murder falls under the courts jurisdiction. Article 5 clearly says that the only categories of crimes the Court will examine are

      a. Genocide

      b. Crimes against humanity

      c. War Crimes

      d. The crime of aggression.

      Ordinary affairs like murder are not things one can be tried for unless it is part of a 'widespread and systematic' attack in crimes against humanity. It is further elaborated in Article 7 Paragraph 2 Section 1. Claiming what Morsi is accused of reaches that level is simply implausible, even if the charges against him made sense.

      Now Sisi on the other hand likely could be charged with crimes against humanity. His assult on peaceful MB protestors at Rabaa and other places probably counts as a widespread and systematic order to murder and as targeting a political group under Article 7 Paragraph 1 Section h. His arrests of MB members may in some cases qualify as forced disappearance under Section i. Overall I think there is a case against the regime worth forwarding to the prosecutor.

      Unfortunately, that won't happen because as is found in Article 13 the court only has jurisdiction if the crimes happens in a state that has signed the Rome Statue or is referred by the UNSC. So Sisi is safe, as I daresay he won't be signing the Rome Statue anytime soon.

      So in short, even if Morsi is guilty of what the regime charges him with, and I very much doubt it, he could not possibly be charged by the ICC. He simply hasn't committed any crimes the court would deal with even according to the regime. Sisi on the other hand has committed the crimes, but the court doesn't have jurisdiction.

      I think that's the first time I've been called a demagogue for one of my explanations of international law on the internet. Ignorant I am more used to and it is true I am not what I would call an 'expert' on international law. That said I do know the basics and if that makes me 'ignorant' than what shall we call a person who posts links to documents he clearly has not read and doesn't understand?

  4. You could at least get the dates right. Morsi's alleged crimes occurred in December, not July. Not even they could possibly say with a straight face that what Morsi did on July 3rd is a crime.

    But yeah, this is pretty much right out of the Cultural Revolution, Hopefully it doesn't take Egypt as long to get over its creepy personality cult as China took.

    1. Hey yo Walker Morsi in his meeting with el-Sisi on July 3 2013 told him that his criminal followers will set Egypt on fire right? and it happened this makes him a criminal because he incited violence Mr Einstein

    2. That's not legally actionable incitement in any normal country. The regime's lawyers are presumably smart enough to know that which is why they aren't trying to use it. Not that it could really look like more of a sham to the world than it does now, but I assume they want to keep at least a little dignity.

    3. Oh, that's brilliant, so a president that tells his minister of defense leading a revolution or a coup that there is going a blood bath or the country is going to be set on fire is his worst crime. We got it now , say no more.

  5. Expert Mr. Walker, what cultural revolution ? China didn't need to change personality cult, they are still officially communists but they are 1st, or 2nd business partner with the US. What did the Ex-communists eastern Europeans accomplish with the US (next to nothing) ?

    1. Freedom my expert,and respect for human rights, if nothing else, and with that comes progress. I hope you did visit Poland or Hungary or Slovakia, under the communist rule to compare.

    2. I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but by getting over its personality cult I was actually referring to the way Deng Xiaoping got rid of Mao worship. China is still officially communist but they don't execute people for being 'rightist' or 'capitalist roader' or just not groveling before Mao enough. You can criticize Mao in China now and it is the Party line that he made serious mistakes.

      Unfortunately, that didn't happen until Mao was dead.

      But you just compared Sisi the glorious, the one we can trust, the savior, the master of Egypt, mother of the World to one of the tyrants of the 20thc. I recommend you report yourself to the police and write an immediate self-criticism to purge such disloyal thoughts.

  6. Khaled , I am not blaming eastern European nations, I am blaming the US for not economically supporting/rewarding those nations for what they accomplished. Instead they dealt economically with China like it is the closest friend. !!??at the same time they don't have relation with communist Cuba ?? US is very ironic country. They claim of giving Aids to Egypt for decades, ~ 80% of it military aid giving contracts to US companies, mmmm..!!

    1. So if the American military aid is used to buy F 16s and Apache's its bad but if it used to buy less advanced weapons from Russia or France its better. Not sure I agree.

    2. US aid could not be used to buy aid from anywhere else since the US requires all aid be spent on US weapons. Since Egypt can't even afford to pay for food and fuel that means it is very unlikely the military will turn elsewhere for weapons. The Israel lobby in the US will make sure the military aid flows to Sisi, who they support strongly. Europe Russia and China are not interested in giving free money to a tinpot dictator because he helps Israel.


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